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Humax HDR 1000s - where's the 23000 symbol rate?


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Old 10-01-2014, 18:52
anfield cabinet
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I'm trying to add a transponder in non-Freesat mode. The FEC rate is wrong for the transponder 10847V in the pre-existing transponder list, hence no signal. It's showing an FEC of 8/9 instead of 2/3. Symbol rate is correct, 23000.

However when trying to add a transponder, the only symbol rates available are 22000, 26000 and 27500. Why isn't there 23000?
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Old 10-01-2014, 19:13
grahamlthompson
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Shouldn't be a problem it's a transponder on the freesat epg, so should already be in the database. I will look tomorrow.

Astra 1N 10847.00 V 50 UK DVB-S2 8PSK 23000 2/3 44.5 Mbps NID:2 TID:2050

Never used non-freesat on the HDR-1000S.
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Old 10-01-2014, 19:27
anfield cabinet
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Graham, it appears not. If you can't enter the 23000 symbol rate, you wouldn't be able to store any alternate national HD versions of BBC1 on this particular model.

Just checked again in the transponder database of the box. This transponder is listed as 10847, V, 23000, 8/9.

FEC definitely wrong.

11023H, 23000, 2/3 isn't there either. So you can't add the Scottish or Welsh versions of BBC1 HD, as well as BBC4HD or BBC News HD if the SR of 23000 can't be selected.
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Old 10-01-2014, 20:08
a516
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Graham, it appears not. If you can't enter the 23000 symbol rate, you wouldn't be able to store any alternate national HD versions of BBC1 on this particular model.

Just checked again in the transponder database of the box. This transponder is listed as 10847, V, 23000, 8/9.

FEC definitely wrong.

11023H, 23000, 2/3 isn't there either. So you can't add the Scottish or Welsh versions of BBC1 HD, as well as BBC4HD or BBC News HD if the SR of 23000 can't be selected.
Hi. I can confirm that the ability to define 23000 as the symbol rate appears to have been removed in the Freetime software update.

Until earlier this week, I was able to select "user define" and input 23000 as the symbol rate. Back to the Manhattan box for non-Freesat channels I'm afraid...

Would be great if others could confirm if they are encountering the same issue. Some forum members claim that satellite receivers are "non compliant" with EU law by not allowing input of the symbol rate stopping access to free-to-air channels. Whether that stands as a valid argument I do not know.
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Old 10-01-2014, 20:33
anfield cabinet
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Hi. I can confirm that the ability to define 23000 as the symbol rate appears to have been removed in the Freetime software update.

Until earlier this week, I was able to select "user define" and input 23000 as the symbol rate. Back to the Manhattan box for non-Freesat channels I'm afraid...

Would be great if others could confirm if they are encountering the same issue. Some forum members claim that satellite receivers are "non compliant" with EU law by not allowing input of the symbol rate stopping access to free-to-air channels. Whether that stands as a valid argument I do not know.
Interesting. This is similar to the Sky+HD box manual channel add on facility where you can't add an SR of 23000 either. Is this deliberate by Freesat I wonder? Maybe they only want you to watch the HD version of BBC1 associated with postcode entered in the STB during original setup?
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Old 10-01-2014, 20:38
Mickey_T
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Could it be because there's no encryption flag on non freesat HD channels?

That's the case with the G1 boxes and HD in non freesat mode, but of course the new boxes may be different as it's all encrypted on those anyway.
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Old 10-01-2014, 20:39
a516
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Interesting. This is similar to the Sky+HD box manual channel add on facility where you can't add an SR of 23000 either. Is this deliberate by Freesat I wonder? Maybe they only want you to watch the HD version of BBC1 associated with postcode entered in the STB during original setup?
For viewers in the Midlands, it also stops them accessing ITV HD Central in non-Freesat mode (in Freesat mode, ITV HD London is provided).
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Old 10-01-2014, 22:58
a516
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Could it be because there's no encryption flag on non freesat HD channels?

That's the case with the G1 boxes and HD in non freesat mode, but of course the new boxes may be different as it's all encrypted on those anyway.
No nothing to do with that. You used to be able to select "user define" and manually type in "23000" in the symbol rate box. Once you'd entered all the parameters you had the option to scan all channels, or just free-to-air channels.
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Old 11-01-2014, 01:03
davemurgatroyd
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Would be great if others could confirm if they are encountering the same issue. Some forum members claim that satellite receivers are "non compliant" with EU law by not allowing input of the symbol rate stopping access to free-to-air channels. Whether that stands as a valid argument I do not know.
Unfortunately it is NOT valid - you can receive the channel BBC1 HD but you cannot tune other regional variations of that channel outside the one allocated to your postcode. The clue is in the fact that they are merely regional variations of a channel (in legal terms) and not a seperate channel - the same also applies now to some regions of ITV HD.
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Old 11-01-2014, 10:54
anfield cabinet
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Not good news either for those who want to watch STV HD. They'll have to wait now until it's launched on the Freesat guide. For those who stored channels from transponders that have an SR rate of 23000 before this update, I'm guessing that they still can view them in non-Freesat mode?
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Old 11-01-2014, 11:09
grahamlthompson
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I can confirm you can't enter a SR of 23000 with the latest firmware. Not sure if it's a bug or deliberate.
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Old 11-01-2014, 22:10
a516
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Unfortunately it is NOT valid - you can receive the channel BBC1 HD but you cannot tune other regional variations of that channel outside the one allocated to your postcode. The clue is in the fact that they are merely regional variations of a channel (in legal terms) and not a seperate channel - the same also applies now to some regions of ITV HD.
Do you have information confirming that argument, e.g. link to any legal case or EU directive documentation, or is that your personal interpretation?

I'm only asking because both sides of the argument gets mentioned periodically on here, and I've never seen any actual evidence cited, so that it's almost becoming an urban myth based on what someone posted here at some point in the past. This is not an attack on you or anyone else, it just seems to be a good time to check the basis and validity for the "non-compliant" argument and evidence supporting the various conclusions reached.

......................

My opinion on the matter is that it is bad form to remove a specification, no matter how niche it is, without notice and without making the user aware of that fact - imagine if Microsoft sent an update to computers removing a certain functionality without giving users the option to accept or reject the changes, or Apple an iOS update removing some niche functionality on the iPhone?

Also, if satellite operators can send updates removing certain parameters, what next? The removal of certain frequencies? If Scotland goes a separate way , could operators send an update disabling access to transponders used by Scottish broadcasters and vice-versa? Isn't this a bit North Korean in nature (where radios are designed to only receive North Korean radio frequencies).

(This opinion, is of course if the omission of 23000 is deliberate, and not a bug.)
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Old 11-01-2014, 22:22
-GONZO-
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I can confirm you can't enter a SR of 23000 with the latest firmware. Not sure if it's a bug or deliberate.
Judging by some of the odd decisions made as to how the UI has to be it wouldn't surprise me if this was a decision made by Freesat.
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Old 17-01-2014, 20:44
jimbo
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Do you have information confirming that argument, e.g. link to any legal case or EU directive documentation, or is that your personal interpretation?

I'm only asking because both sides of the argument gets mentioned periodically on here, and I've never seen any actual evidence cited, so that it's almost becoming an urban myth based on what someone posted here at some point in the past. This is not an attack on you or anyone else, it just seems to be a good time to check the basis and validity for the "non-compliant" argument and evidence supporting the various conclusions reached.

......................

My opinion on the matter is that it is bad form to remove a specification, no matter how niche it is, without notice and without making the user aware of that fact - imagine if Microsoft sent an update to computers removing a certain functionality without giving users the option to accept or reject the changes, or Apple an iOS update removing some niche functionality on the iPhone?

Also, if satellite operators can send updates removing certain parameters, what next? The removal of certain frequencies? If Scotland goes a separate way , could operators send an update disabling access to transponders used by Scottish broadcasters and vice-versa? Isn't this a bit North Korean in nature (where radios are designed to only receive North Korean radio frequencies).

(This opinion, is of course if the omission of 23000 is deliberate, and not a bug.)
If Scotland goes independent, it will be illegal for Scottish public services to be disabled outside Scotland and visa versa, because if it happens, Scotland will be a separate country.

This will certainly be true if Scotland as a separate nation is a member of the EU.

It is prohibited for anyone in one member state to block out PSB channels from other member states.
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Old 18-01-2014, 14:32
jimbo
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Found the legislation in question

Directive 2002/22/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council

of 7 March 2002

on universal service and users' rights relating to electronic communications networks and services (Universal Service Directive)


-------------------------------------------
Article 24

Interoperability of consumer digital television equipment

In accordance with the provisions of Annex VI, Member States shall ensure the interoperability of the consumer digital television equipment referred to therein.

ANNEX VI

INTEROPERABILITY OF DIGITAL CONSUMER EQUIPMENT REFERRED TO IN ARTICLE 24

1. The common scrambling algorithm and free-to-air reception

All consumer equipment intended for the reception of digital television signals, for sale or rent or otherwise made available in the Community, capable of descrambling digital television signals, is to possess the capability to:

- allow the descrambling of such signals according to the common European scrambling algorithm as administered by a recognised European standards organisation, currently ETSI;

- display signals that have been transmitted in clear provided that, in the event that such equipment is rented, the rentee is in compliance with the relevant rental agreement.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, in the same directive:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(32) End-users should be able to enjoy a guarantee of interoperability in respect of all equipment sold in the Community for the reception of digital television. Member States should be able to require minimum harmonised standards in respect of such equipment. Such standards could be adapted from time to time in the light of technological and market developments.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This paragraph 32 can be interpreted as meaning that the technology can be adapted in light of technological developments - ie IMPROVE service - NOT remove functionality.

Full text here
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...2L0022:EN:HTML

So by restricting access to channels on a box purchased, Freesat, or maybe Humax, whoever sanctioned the blockout, are in breach of this Directive.
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Old 18-01-2014, 14:49
grahamlthompson
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So by restricting access to channels on a box purchased, Freesat, or maybe Humax, whoever sanctioned the blockout, are in breach of this Directive.
If that's the case Sky have been in breach for years. You have never been able to use add channels for DVB-S2 transponders on a Sky-HD box. Also most non Humax freesat kit does not allow non standard parameters so they are also in breach. I wasn't aware that someone has confirmed it was deliberate, could be just a software bug.
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Old 18-01-2014, 15:10
jimbo
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If that's the case Sky have been in breach for years. You have never been able to use add channels for DVB-S2 transponders on a Sky-HD box. Also most non Humax freesat kit does not allow non standard parameters so they are also in breach. I wasn't aware that someone has confirmed it was deliberate, could be just a software bug.
Not sure this Humax issue is deliberate but Sky seemingly is but not sure.
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Old 18-01-2014, 15:13
grahamlthompson
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Not sure this Humax issue is deliberate but Sky seemingly is but not sure.
It still works OK on a Foxsat-hdr by the way (and a FOXSAT-HD I imagine)
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Old 18-01-2014, 16:49
jimbo
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That's something and of course still compliant - but when did FoxSat HD get an update last?
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Old 18-01-2014, 17:03
grahamlthompson
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That's something and of course still compliant - but when did FoxSat HD get an update last?
Not sure I have given mine to a friend. It's been a while though.
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Old 26-01-2014, 19:01
ds_reader
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Found the legislation in question

Directive 2002/22/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council

of 7 March 2002

on universal service and users' rights relating to electronic communications networks and services (Universal Service Directive)
Strictly speaking you are incorrect as 2002/22/EC was amended by 2009/136/EC.

Note...

Directive 2002/22/EC (Universal Service Directive) neither mandates nor prohibits conditions imposed by providers, in accordance with national law, limiting end-users’ access to and/or use of services and applications, but lays down an obligation to provide information regarding such conditions. Member States wishing to implement measures regarding end-users’ access to and/or use of services and applications must respect the fundamental rights of citizens, including in relation to privacy and due process, and any such measures should take full account of policy goals defined at Community level, such as furthering the development of the Community information society.
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Old 26-01-2014, 19:08
ds_reader
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If that's the case Sky have been in breach for years.
Your statement is simply completely totally WRONG.

Companies can't be in breach of EU Directives only Governments can be in breach of EU Directives.

EU directives lay down certain end results that must be achieved in every Member State. National authorities have to adapt their laws to meet these goals, but are free to decide how to do so.
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Old 26-01-2014, 21:17
grahamlthompson
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Your statement is simply completely totally WRONG.

Companies can't be in breach of EU Directives only Governments can be in breach of EU Directives.
OK the UK government should now sue Sky despite the fact that pretty well ever kit sold in the UK has complied with the directive since day one.

Sky in this case are now the sole maker of Sky Boxes (and were the sole suppliers of the same independently of the whoever made the box to the standard Sky demanded). As the sole source of such boxes, they were in breach of the regulations for many years.

The regulations refer to the legal electrical specification of items that can legally sold in the EU. Can you buy a new 200W incandescent light bulb anywhere in the UK, or in the EU ?

http://www.dssw.co.uk/blog/2010/02/1...cal-equipment/

Do you work for Sky ?

Do you have a financial interest in Sky ?

Do you have some other strange, reason to defend the indefensible ?

Has my post worried you in some other way ?

I was a planning engineer with National Grid for over 40yrs.

During the overnight period the extra load imposed by by millions of Sky boxes using around 60 times of the current legal standby regulations has cost each and every one of us who are electricity consumers have subsided Sky users to many millions of pounds.
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Old 27-01-2014, 10:55
grahamlthompson
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From Barry at MyHumax

New version should be going OTA now.

Version 2.00.13

Don't have the official release note as yet but you should find:

1. Dates returned to timers list.
2. Manual transponder entry now fixed.

Edit: HB 1000S release should be tomorrow.
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Old 27-01-2014, 11:01
deadhorse800
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Unfortunately it is NOT valid - you can receive the channel BBC1 HD but you cannot tune other regional variations of that channel outside the one allocated to your postcode. The clue is in the fact that they are merely regional variations of a channel (in legal terms) and not a seperate channel - the same also applies now to some regions of ITV HD.
I understand there is a separate method on (some?) Humax boxes for adding BBC1 HD regions to the full epg? can anyone confirm?
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