Fair answers Ken, cheers.



It's just that I have experience in the world of swinging, and top of the heap of misconceptions is that it's usually the husband that suggested it in the first place. Uh-uh.

And men sleeping around?
Same level?

The impetus for change needs to come from the 'oppressed' group and in this case I don't see a swathe of women eager to be allowed to have them or other women match men in terms of sexual exploits.

The truth is that its because it would be incredibly easy for women to pull on the level of men. There are no shortage of recipients. But essentially and on the whole women don't want that. In general women prefer sex as part of a relationship. It tends to be more of an intimate act for women than it is for men. It tends to involve more feelings and attachment for women. Is that because of the biological clock? The burden of pregnancy? The fear of rape? I don't know. I just know that it tends to be more complicated for women. As long as that remains the case women desiring the act of sex without the cocoon of a relationship on the same level that men do, would lead to emotional havoc.

There may not be a 'swathe of women' wanting to match men in terms of promiscuity, but there are plenty of women who wish to change the social attitude which says that men who sleep around are studs and women who sleep around are sluts. You don't have to be sexually promiscuous to want that double standard to change.

But the thing is that there are a large number of WOMEN who uphold that standard via bitchy comments and 'slut shaming'. The dynamic won't change until women in general stop chastising their fellow women for that behaviour and support their right to have sex with however they want, however many times they want.

What I'm saying is that there is a double standard for a reason. While I don't condone slut shaming anyone or looking down on a women for putting it about, I don't believe that the two scenarios are a linear comparison at all. And I believe the standards are largely upheld by other women.

PS: I said 'them OR other women...'.

On paper slags and players are just the same.
In reality,there is a difference,There are fun girls and there are girls you marry.It's always been that way.

Well, I'm sure Luisa wouldn't have minded being called a fun girl.

Fun girls do get married too, though.

And this is why you are one of the few people defending Dappy who is putting forward a considered viewpoint that is worth debating.

Nevertheless, I want to take you up on the following statement:


Yes, there are certainly a large number of women who uphold this double standard via bitchy comments and slut shaming (as is obvious from some of these threads) but that doesn't mean that we can't challenge that attitude.

The issue I have with the way that you have framed this debate is that you seem to be holding your arms up in the air and saying 'well that's just the way it is', rather than considering how these attitudes could be changed over time. Is it really so utopian to want to challenge this double standard?

What if the image us flawed - by for example the stupid stereotypes that Dappy has that people like his mum would never have affairs and that women who openly experiment have branded themselves as whores for life.

Do you thing he can understand that mum or auntie B were risqué even though they are domestic now? Auntie Tulie might be a bit if a goer too.

Depends what you consider to be the double standard. That women aren't respected like men for sleeping around? If so I've explained why its not a linear comparison so its not a double standard. However if it about the vitriol that women receive for sleeping around then a lot of women need to look at their role in the process. Because to be frank most men don't care so deeply about the issue.

However I will also challenge whether the right to fk around as much as men with impunity is a right that many women seriously want. Do they really see rather soulless, no strings sex as that desirable? Do they really share the same desires in that respect that men do? As a man when I was single I'd want to sleep with any girl that looked in my general direction. I was not that picky. Do women in general really see that as a utopia? Having sex with a guy based solely on his looks every other night and never having to contact them again? Doing that gig for 10, 15 years? Do they look at that as an achievement for them? Because we look at that as an achievement for us!

I'm not saying that women should be chastised for sleeping around but we can't deny that they would generally be dropping standards if they were to behave like men sexually. Being that they don't need any sort of achievement or charm to sleeparound I imagine that the level of discourse would be pretty crass and crude. As men we need the higher standards of women to improve us as people. We need women to set those standards or most of us wouldn't even shower. To me it is important that women maintain those standards otherwise the world would be too busy boning to advance. We'd be like rabbits! The world would smell of body fluids and sweat. And unless women can effectively divorce the action of sex from the feeling of intimacy then mentally women would be a Lindsay Lohan shaped mess.

We want equal rights, equal respect and equal opportunities.

Men need to set their own standards, like grown ups, and not rely on women all the time. We can make our own choices.

Well maybe I'm old fashioned but I see nothing admirable in a man or woman who thinks its OK to have sex with 5 people a night. I wouldn't want a promiscuous partner of either sex. I know some people have higher sex drives than others but IMO it shows lack of self respect and discernment in choosing a partner.

You gave already stipulated that women have a greater number if opportunities for promiscuity than men. Why campaign for something they already have but chose not to use? It would be like campaigning for female suffrage because the female vote turnout was low, ie pointless.

Well you need to tell more women because women are some of the biggest proponents of casting negative assertions on other women and setting those standards. Maybe its Stockholm Syndrome on mass but if women like Luisa are going to complain about this perception they should also address the behaviour of other women. Female contestants on The Great British Bake Off have.

Seriously though men relying on women? For what? If that was the case alimony wouldn't exist as a concept.

Exactly.

Dappy was not right, his views were absolutely sexist. Why does it bother people so much if somebody (especially a woman) is promiscuous? Are they having sex with you? Nope. It's their body, they should be able to have as much sex as they want and not be labeled a "slut" or a "whore", both terms used in general to put down women.

I don't discriminate when it comes to standing up for women's rights. I'll speak to men and women. Trying to turn it round and blame it on women won't cut it, I'm afraid.
Dappy was the one arguing the case, not a woman.

As for 'relying on women'?

I quote - "As men we need the higher standards of women to improve us as people. We need women to set those standards or most of us wouldn't even shower. To me it is important that women maintain those standards otherwise the world would be too busy boning to advance."

Stop relying on women.

Exactly. They CHOOSE not to exercise it! En masse women simply don't want to be as promiscuous as men want to be. The standard is DIFFERENT and generally accepted by both genders. So if a woman is perceived to drop below the standard of sexual behaviour for women they tend to be looked down on by BOTH genders. Hence someone who is sexually confident and promiscuous like Luisa is booed by a largely female crowd instead of being embraced by them.

That doesn't make it right, even if it were true.
People are individuals, both men and women.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Should have said stop relying on women for sexual gratification. The need for sexual gratification means we have to shower or go Hans Solo.

I tell a lie. That was a crass simplification. We do need women for a number of genuine reasons. But we need each other. We're not in separate camps at war or something. I'mjust saying that sometimes its not about sexism just sexual differences. We share standards across the board and for reasons. We should acknowledge the pitfalls of women trying to sexually out do men out of an unrealistic blueprinted principle. It may be appropriate for some women (but trust me not even Luisa could be as loose as most men) but for most constant no strings attached sex is not what women want or indeed should want. All that actually ends up with (and I've seen it) is young girls thinking that they need to be as promiscuous and free as men to be accepted as cool and modern. It leads to real issues because most women aren't wired to behave that way and it can cause serious emotional damage and exploitation.

Do you not even see the blatant contradictions in your post? People are individuals yet they should be treated the same??

I don't think anyone would argue that there are not different attitudes to men and women's sexuality, just that we should be moving away from that, and to some extent have made big strides in sexual equality in this country. Of course women are 'just as culpable' (often more so) of slut-shaming, but I see that as a consequence of generations of male-dominated society. The double-standards certainly serve male-interests far more than female ones.

So we should be moving towards women being heralded as being ultimate ladettes for banging as much as men do? Not sure that would be utopia for parents of young girls at all.

Men ask the question, what the answer is, is down to women. That is unless women are said to have the intellectual capacity of an amoeba.

Men seduce women. Don't women themselves play a role?
Men get women pregnant. Again don't women play a part? In fact with the after-morning pill and abortion, any decision is purely down to women.

I haven't said that at all, but, just as others in the thread have said, that there should be equal standards applied to sexual behaviour. Whether someone thinks it's terrible or great that people sleep with lots of people - apply the same standard to both sexes.