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The Valeyard |
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#1 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 214
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The Valeyard
I thought the valeyard was meant to come back somewhere between the doctors 12th and final regeneration. So are we to take it that the dreamlord was him?
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#2 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Harrow, Middlesex
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#3 |
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 522
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Well if you think of it we haven't seen the Doctors "final" regeneration yet so they Valeyard can show his face at anytime between now and the Final regeneration so who knows when that is.
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#4 |
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Downforce Radio
Posts: 9,226
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There was a lot of regeneration energy given off in the initial part of the Regeneration before the quick change to Capaldi later on.
Maybe there could be a few more renegade Doctors falling out of that volcano? |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,205
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Quote:
I thought the valeyard was meant to come back somewhere between the doctors 12th and final regeneration. So are we to take it that the dreamlord was him?
So it won't feature while he is showrunner. Neither will the Rani. I kinda agree that brining back oblique references to Classic Who, when it was in decline, is kinda pointless. Either the modern audience doesn't remember, or doesn't care, or both. |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 972
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Ah, but the Valeyard did get a namecheck in the last series.
I think Moff does that to let the fans come up with their own theories. |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
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Quote:
Well if you think of it we haven't seen the Doctors "final" regeneration yet so they Valeyard can show his face at anytime between now and the Final regeneration so who knows when that is.
The future has changed by the Doctor being given a new lifecycle, but prior to TNOTD and therefore the Valeyard would have to have come from somewhere between the Doctor's twelfth (Tennant post-Journey's End) and Final (The Eleventh Doctor) incarnations... My personal thought on the matter is that the Dream Lord is a formless aspect of what will later become the Valeyard and what's needed then is a mcguffin for physically separating the two after Amy's Choice but before TNOTD... ...like for instance when the Flesh scanned the Doctor in TRF/TAP
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#8 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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Quote:
Either the modern audience doesn't remember, or doesn't care, or both.
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#9 |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 24,092
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as time is wibbly wobbly timey wimey and stuff then i dont see any reason why there should be any consistency whatsoever. if the plot goes all screwy then just throw in yet another alternate universe ......
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#10 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,572
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Quote:
I think Moff is non-plussed about it.
So it won't feature while he is showrunner. Neither will the Rani. I kinda agree that brining back oblique references to Classic Who, when it was in decline, is kinda pointless. Either the modern audience doesn't remember, or doesn't care, or both. |
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#11 |
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK
Posts: 16,707
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Big Finish released a story last month (for the uber fans who subscribe) with Colin Baker, Michael Jayston and Lynda Bellingham that made the story more convoluted, and impossible to be in the same canon as the 'of the Doctor' trilogy. The performances were entertaining enough, mind.
It ends on a cliffhanger, which I presume means more BF Valeyard is coming, and that there is no chance it'll come up in any meaningful way in the TV show. |
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#12 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
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I'd be happy to see the Valeyard in a story...
...and I think that, like the Rani, there are a lot of voices against the return of both these characters across fandom who have simply turned up late to the parade and fallen in line with the "old guard" as it were. I see so many fans who came to the show in 2005-06 aping the views of a particularly loud corner of the "whovian mutual backscratching society" and half the time you can tell from the join date and date of birth on their profile whether further scrutiny is going to reveal them to be toeing the party line without judging for themselves. I'm not saying that applies completely to a particular age group, nor am I saying that all those who claim to dislike the Rani and the Valeyard are doing so on the basis of someone else's judgement. I'm just saying there are plenty of fans who came to the show this century who perpetuate cliched opinions of aspects of the show from the 80s in particular without actually bothering to base that judgement on first-hand experience. It happens... It's "a thing"
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#13 |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,360
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Quote:
I'd be happy to see the Valeyard in a story...
...and I think that, like the Rani, there are a lot of voices against the return of both these characters across fandom who have simply turned up late to the parade [...] I'm not saying that applies completely to a particular age group, nor am I saying that all those who claim to dislike the Rani and the Valeyard are doing so on the basis of someone else's judgement. You don't have to be any particular age or have seen anything whatsoever of the programme to understand the issue in my opinion. |
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#14 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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I don't want them back on the grounds that it'd be inward-focussed fan service, which is not a healthy way to run a television programme. I feel that is obvious just from a description of the idea: how about if the programme brought back a character that was seen in two serials about 30 years ago? Alright then, how about if instead they brought back a character that was in it quite prominently for an entire year, ummm, about 30 years ago?
You don't have to be any particular age or have seen anything whatsoever of the programme to understand the issue in my opinion. Also... How can bringing them (Valeyard OR Rani) back be an "inward focused fan serice" when its the "inward focused fans" who hate them ? ![]() EDIT: ... When someone says "I'm not saying A, nor am I saying B but I am saying C" it doesn't fully portray the intent of what you're quoting if you edit out the bit pertaining to C
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#15 |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 36,996
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I was just coming here to post a Valeyard thread myself
What if each incarnation is always planned from the get go (say like waiting in a queue waiting to be called into action) and because 10 used two regenerations he never got his chance as the new cycle mean a new queue so at some point he does become "real" and goes looking for revenge |
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#16 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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Quote:
I was just coming here to post a Valeyard thread myself
What if each incarnation is always planned from the get go (say like waiting in a queue waiting to be called into action) and because 10 used two regenerations he never got his chance as the new cycle mean a new queue so at some point he does become "real" and goes looking for revenge But either way, he was still mentioned by the GI in TNOTD He would have to come into being at some point between the metacrisis and the 13th regen to fit with the description of him in TTOATL. |
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#17 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Harrow, Middlesex
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#18 |
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Edgware, Middlesex
Posts: 8,277
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Quote:
I thought the valeyard was meant to come back somewhere between the doctors 12th and final regeneration. So are we to take it that the dreamlord was him?
To say that he is from something in between regenerations means he isn't actually a regeneration. He's a bit like a watcher in concept: not an actual regeneration but a sort of halfway house. The whole concept of Trial was that he was helping the Time Lords convict the 6th Doctor in return for the Doctor's remaining regenerations which will give him permanent existence. This would suggest that he doesn't have permanent existence otherwise and will no doubt have faded away back into the Ether by now! |
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#19 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15,572
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Quote:
He is a metaphysical construct, not an actual Doctor. He is the distillation of the Doctor's dark side from between his 12th and final regeneration.
To say that he is from something in between regenerations means he isn't actually a regeneration. He's a bit like a watcher in concept: not an actual regeneration but a sort of halfway house. The whole concept of Trial was that he was helping the Time Lords convict the 6th Doctor in return for the Doctor's remaining regenerations which will give him permanent existence. This would suggest that he doesn't have permanent existence otherwise and will no doubt have faded away back into the Ether by now! |
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#20 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,355
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was part of the 'lost generation' so only started watching in 2005 but have to say, while I think the valeyard would confuse thing's a bit (and moffat dosen't need any help in that) I think the rani would be a great character to return. have watched a handful of classic stories since I started watching and saw one with colin baker where the master and rani were working together and I really liked the dynamic. love the master and would probably love the rani to be in the new series also. a new ep with the two of them working together would be a dream
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#21 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 522
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Quote:
I'd agree with this, although....
The future has changed by the Doctor being given a new lifecycle, but prior to TNOTD and therefore the Valeyard would have to have come from somewhere between the Doctor's twelfth (Tennant post-Journey's End) and Final (The Eleventh Doctor) incarnations... My personal thought on the matter is that the Dream Lord is a formless aspect of what will later become the Valeyard and what's needed then is a mcguffin for physically separating the two after Amy's Choice but before TNOTD... ...like for instance when the Flesh scanned the Doctor in TRF/TAP ![]() Basically I'm just saying its totally up to the writers at this point as the New set of regeneration and the wording of "Between his 12 and final regeneration" Created a big loop hole that can be exploited at anytime. |
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#22 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London or Valencia
Posts: 5,732
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I personally like The Rani as a character, having only seen her for the first time a year or two ago while exploring Classic Who. I think a modern interpretation of the character would be absolutely fantastic. NuWho lacks recurring female villains - Madame Kovarian seems to have been a brilliant sole exception, and she seems to have been a squandered opportunity now.
I recently heard an idea that The Doctor, The Master, The Rani and various other titular Timelords were a group of Gallifreyan's that went astray from their home planet and formed something of a group. I think that would be a fantastic way to introduce the Rani and eventually reintroduce The Master. It could explore The Doctor's past a bit more without compromising the character's sense of mystery and it would also be a way of drawing out the eventual return of the Timelords, which is a plot I don't want to see resolved any time soon. |
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#23 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
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Quote:
The Doctor, The Master, The Rani and various other titular Timelords were a group of Gallifreyan's that went astray from their home planet and formed something of a group.
![]() ...but I just want to see a return of Time Lord villains in general The Valeyard and The Rani were both good ideas that get a bad rap because of the period of the show they come from. I say get them out of the box and give em a bit of breathing space, see what they can do in the context of the new series, same goes for The Monk, Morbius etc... Time Lords are
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#24 |
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Edgware, Middlesex
Posts: 8,277
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I don't think we'll see any more Time Lords (villains or otherwise) until Gallifrey is back. It would be pushing credulity for any more of them to have tried the Master's trick with the Chameleon Arch.
I hope that they do come back, though. It would be really annoying if Gallifrey just remained behind the crack for the rest of time! |
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#25 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,042
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Bring back Timothy Dalton!
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