I thought the valeyard was meant to come back somewhere between the doctors 12th and final regeneration. So are we to take it that the dreamlord was him?
The Valeyard
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Well if you think of it we haven't seen the Doctors "final" regeneration yet so they Valeyard can show his face at anytime between now and the Final regeneration so who knows when that is.
There was a lot of regeneration energy given off in the initial part of the Regeneration before the quick change to Capaldi later on.
Maybe there could be a few more renegade Doctors falling out of that volcano?
Maybe there could be a few more renegade Doctors falling out of that volcano?
Originally Posted by yidarmy123:
“I thought the valeyard was meant to come back somewhere between the doctors 12th and final regeneration. So are we to take it that the dreamlord was him?”
“I thought the valeyard was meant to come back somewhere between the doctors 12th and final regeneration. So are we to take it that the dreamlord was him?”
I think Moff is non-plussed about it.
So it won't feature while he is showrunner.
Neither will the Rani.
I kinda agree that brining back oblique references to Classic Who, when it was in decline, is kinda pointless.
Either the modern audience doesn't remember, or doesn't care, or both.
Ah, but the Valeyard did get a namecheck in the last series.
I think Moff does that to let the fans come up with their own theories.
I think Moff does that to let the fans come up with their own theories.
Originally Posted by Cel1084:
“Well if you think of it we haven't seen the Doctors "final" regeneration yet so they Valeyard can show his face at anytime between now and the Final regeneration so who knows when that is.”
“Well if you think of it we haven't seen the Doctors "final" regeneration yet so they Valeyard can show his face at anytime between now and the Final regeneration so who knows when that is.”
I'd agree with this, although....
The future has changed by the Doctor being given a new lifecycle, but prior to TNOTD and therefore the Valeyard would have to have come from somewhere between the Doctor's twelfth (Tennant post-Journey's End) and Final (The Eleventh Doctor) incarnations...
My personal thought on the matter is that the Dream Lord is a formless aspect of what will later become the Valeyard and what's needed then is a mcguffin for physically separating the two after Amy's Choice but before TNOTD...
...like for instance when the Flesh scanned the Doctor in TRF/TAP
Originally Posted by Grisonaut:
“Either the modern audience doesn't remember, or doesn't care, or both.”
“Either the modern audience doesn't remember, or doesn't care, or both.”
Or in the case of the Rani, they don't remember but they remember being told not to care
as time is wibbly wobbly timey wimey and stuff then i dont see any reason why there should be any consistency whatsoever. if the plot goes all screwy then just throw in yet another alternate universe ......
Originally Posted by Grisonaut:
“I think Moff is non-plussed about it.
So it won't feature while he is showrunner.
Neither will the Rani.
I kinda agree that brining back oblique references to Classic Who, when it was in decline, is kinda pointless.
Either the modern audience doesn't remember, or doesn't care, or both.”
“I think Moff is non-plussed about it.
So it won't feature while he is showrunner.
Neither will the Rani.
I kinda agree that brining back oblique references to Classic Who, when it was in decline, is kinda pointless.
Either the modern audience doesn't remember, or doesn't care, or both.”
Sad if true, as I really wish he would do something with the whole Merlin bit from Battlefield. It's exactly Moffat's cup of tea (imagine getting closure 5 Doctors later), and can't you just see a bearded Capaldi as Merlin?
Big Finish released a story last month (for the uber fans who subscribe) with Colin Baker, Michael Jayston and Lynda Bellingham that made the story more convoluted, and impossible to be in the same canon as the 'of the Doctor' trilogy. The performances were entertaining enough, mind.
It ends on a cliffhanger, which I presume means more BF Valeyard is coming, and that there is no chance it'll come up in any meaningful way in the TV show.
It ends on a cliffhanger, which I presume means more BF Valeyard is coming, and that there is no chance it'll come up in any meaningful way in the TV show.
I'd be happy to see the Valeyard in a story...
...and I think that, like the Rani, there are a lot of voices against the return of both these characters across fandom who have simply turned up late to the parade and fallen in line with the "old guard" as it were.
I see so many fans who came to the show in 2005-06 aping the views of a particularly loud corner of the "whovian mutual backscratching society" and half the time you can tell from the join date and date of birth on their profile whether further scrutiny is going to reveal them to be toeing the party line without judging for themselves.
I'm not saying that applies completely to a particular age group, nor am I saying that all those who claim to dislike the Rani and the Valeyard are doing so on the basis of someone else's judgement.
I'm just saying there are plenty of fans who came to the show this century who perpetuate cliched opinions of aspects of the show from the 80s in particular without actually bothering to base that judgement on first-hand experience.
It happens...
It's "a thing"
...and I think that, like the Rani, there are a lot of voices against the return of both these characters across fandom who have simply turned up late to the parade and fallen in line with the "old guard" as it were.
I see so many fans who came to the show in 2005-06 aping the views of a particularly loud corner of the "whovian mutual backscratching society" and half the time you can tell from the join date and date of birth on their profile whether further scrutiny is going to reveal them to be toeing the party line without judging for themselves.
I'm not saying that applies completely to a particular age group, nor am I saying that all those who claim to dislike the Rani and the Valeyard are doing so on the basis of someone else's judgement.
I'm just saying there are plenty of fans who came to the show this century who perpetuate cliched opinions of aspects of the show from the 80s in particular without actually bothering to base that judgement on first-hand experience.
It happens...
It's "a thing"
Originally Posted by Shoppy:
“I'd be happy to see the Valeyard in a story...
...and I think that, like the Rani, there are a lot of voices against the return of both these characters across fandom who have simply turned up late to the parade
[...]
I'm not saying that applies completely to a particular age group, nor am I saying that all those who claim to dislike the Rani and the Valeyard are doing so on the basis of someone else's judgement.”
“I'd be happy to see the Valeyard in a story...
...and I think that, like the Rani, there are a lot of voices against the return of both these characters across fandom who have simply turned up late to the parade
[...]
I'm not saying that applies completely to a particular age group, nor am I saying that all those who claim to dislike the Rani and the Valeyard are doing so on the basis of someone else's judgement.”
I don't want them back on the grounds that it'd be inward-focussed fan service, which is not a healthy way to run a television programme. I feel that is obvious just from a description of the idea: how about if the programme brought back a character that was seen in two serials about 30 years ago? Alright then, how about if instead they brought back a character that was in it quite prominently for an entire year, ummm, about 30 years ago?
You don't have to be any particular age or have seen anything whatsoever of the programme to understand the issue in my opinion.
Originally Posted by TEDR:
“I don't want them back on the grounds that it'd be inward-focussed fan service, which is not a healthy way to run a television programme. I feel that is obvious just from a description of the idea: how about if the programme brought back a character that was seen in two serials about 30 years ago? Alright then, how about if instead they brought back a character that was in it quite prominently for an entire year, ummm, about 30 years ago?
You don't have to be any particular age or have seen anything whatsoever of the programme to understand the issue in my opinion.”
“I don't want them back on the grounds that it'd be inward-focussed fan service, which is not a healthy way to run a television programme. I feel that is obvious just from a description of the idea: how about if the programme brought back a character that was seen in two serials about 30 years ago? Alright then, how about if instead they brought back a character that was in it quite prominently for an entire year, ummm, about 30 years ago?
You don't have to be any particular age or have seen anything whatsoever of the programme to understand the issue in my opinion.”
How about if the programme brought back a character that was seen in two serials about 45 years ago?
Also...
How can bringing them (Valeyard OR Rani) back be an "inward focused fan serice" when its the "inward focused fans" who hate them ?
EDIT: ... When someone says "I'm not saying A, nor am I saying B but I am saying C" it doesn't fully portray the intent of what you're quoting if you edit out the bit pertaining to C
I was just coming here to post a Valeyard thread myself
What if each incarnation is always planned from the get go (say like waiting in a queue waiting to be called into action) and because 10 used two regenerations he never got his chance as the new cycle mean a new queue so at some point he does become "real" and goes looking for revenge
What if each incarnation is always planned from the get go (say like waiting in a queue waiting to be called into action) and because 10 used two regenerations he never got his chance as the new cycle mean a new queue so at some point he does become "real" and goes looking for revenge
Originally Posted by James Frederick:
“I was just coming here to post a Valeyard thread myself
What if each incarnation is always planned from the get go (say like waiting in a queue waiting to be called into action) and because 10 used two regenerations he never got his chance as the new cycle mean a new queue so at some point he does become "real" and goes looking for revenge”
“I was just coming here to post a Valeyard thread myself
What if each incarnation is always planned from the get go (say like waiting in a queue waiting to be called into action) and because 10 used two regenerations he never got his chance as the new cycle mean a new queue so at some point he does become "real" and goes looking for revenge”
The Valeyard was around when what lie in the Doctor's future was death for 11 at Trenzalore, that future hadn't been changed yet when we saw the Valeyard in TTOATL, though he may have at that point had an alternate future that was rewritten by the time war.
But either way, he was still mentioned by the GI in TNOTD
He would have to come into being at some point between the metacrisis and the 13th regen to fit with the description of him in TTOATL.
Originally Posted by yidarmy123:
“I thought the valeyard was meant to come back somewhere between the doctors 12th and final regeneration. So are we to take it that the dreamlord was him?”
“I thought the valeyard was meant to come back somewhere between the doctors 12th and final regeneration. So are we to take it that the dreamlord was him?”
He is a metaphysical construct, not an actual Doctor. He is the distillation of the Doctor's dark side from between his 12th and final regeneration.
To say that he is from something in between regenerations means he isn't actually a regeneration. He's a bit like a watcher in concept: not an actual regeneration but a sort of halfway house.
The whole concept of Trial was that he was helping the Time Lords convict the 6th Doctor in return for the Doctor's remaining regenerations which will give him permanent existence. This would suggest that he doesn't have permanent existence otherwise and will no doubt have faded away back into the Ether by now!
Originally Posted by Thrombin:
“He is a metaphysical construct, not an actual Doctor. He is the distillation of the Doctor's dark side from between his 12th and final regeneration.
To say that he is from something in between regenerations means he isn't actually a regeneration. He's a bit like a watcher in concept: not an actual regeneration but a sort of halfway house.
The whole concept of Trial was that he was helping the Time Lords convict the 6th Doctor in return for the Doctor's remaining regenerations which will give him permanent existence. This would suggest that he doesn't have permanent existence otherwise and will no doubt have faded away back into the Ether by now!”
“He is a metaphysical construct, not an actual Doctor. He is the distillation of the Doctor's dark side from between his 12th and final regeneration.
To say that he is from something in between regenerations means he isn't actually a regeneration. He's a bit like a watcher in concept: not an actual regeneration but a sort of halfway house.
The whole concept of Trial was that he was helping the Time Lords convict the 6th Doctor in return for the Doctor's remaining regenerations which will give him permanent existence. This would suggest that he doesn't have permanent existence otherwise and will no doubt have faded away back into the Ether by now!”
So in a way it's like the dark side of the Doctor trying to cannibalise his own past in order to avert what Matt's Doctor was ultimately willing to accept on Trenzalore, his own death. With the Valeyard gone, the fight to survive was perhaps gone as well. I'm thinking slightly of the good Kirk/evil Kirk episode from Star Trek. This probably makes no sense. Anyway, Clara to the rescue as always.
was part of the 'lost generation' so only started watching in 2005 but have to say, while I think the valeyard would confuse thing's a bit (and moffat dosen't need any help in that) I think the rani would be a great character to return. have watched a handful of classic stories since I started watching and saw one with colin baker where the master and rani were working together and I really liked the dynamic. love the master and would probably love the rani to be in the new series also. a new ep with the two of them working together would be a dream
Originally Posted by Shoppy:
“I'd agree with this, although....
The future has changed by the Doctor being given a new lifecycle, but prior to TNOTD and therefore the Valeyard would have to have come from somewhere between the Doctor's twelfth (Tennant post-Journey's End) and Final (The Eleventh Doctor) incarnations...
My personal thought on the matter is that the Dream Lord is a formless aspect of what will later become the Valeyard and what's needed then is a mcguffin for physically separating the two after Amy's Choice but before TNOTD...
...like for instance when the Flesh scanned the Doctor in TRF/TAP
”
“I'd agree with this, although....
The future has changed by the Doctor being given a new lifecycle, but prior to TNOTD and therefore the Valeyard would have to have come from somewhere between the Doctor's twelfth (Tennant post-Journey's End) and Final (The Eleventh Doctor) incarnations...
My personal thought on the matter is that the Dream Lord is a formless aspect of what will later become the Valeyard and what's needed then is a mcguffin for physically separating the two after Amy's Choice but before TNOTD...
...like for instance when the Flesh scanned the Doctor in TRF/TAP
”
Basically I'm just saying its totally up to the writers at this point as the New set of regeneration and the wording of "Between his 12 and final regeneration" Created a big loop hole that can be exploited at anytime.
I personally like The Rani as a character, having only seen her for the first time a year or two ago while exploring Classic Who. I think a modern interpretation of the character would be absolutely fantastic. NuWho lacks recurring female villains - Madame Kovarian seems to have been a brilliant sole exception, and she seems to have been a squandered opportunity now.
I recently heard an idea that The Doctor, The Master, The Rani and various other titular Timelords were a group of Gallifreyan's that went astray from their home planet and formed something of a group. I think that would be a fantastic way to introduce the Rani and eventually reintroduce The Master. It could explore The Doctor's past a bit more without compromising the character's sense of mystery and it would also be a way of drawing out the eventual return of the Timelords, which is a plot I don't want to see resolved any time soon.
I recently heard an idea that The Doctor, The Master, The Rani and various other titular Timelords were a group of Gallifreyan's that went astray from their home planet and formed something of a group. I think that would be a fantastic way to introduce the Rani and eventually reintroduce The Master. It could explore The Doctor's past a bit more without compromising the character's sense of mystery and it would also be a way of drawing out the eventual return of the Timelords, which is a plot I don't want to see resolved any time soon.
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“The Doctor, The Master, The Rani and various other titular Timelords were a group of Gallifreyan's that went astray from their home planet and formed something of a group.”
“The Doctor, The Master, The Rani and various other titular Timelords were a group of Gallifreyan's that went astray from their home planet and formed something of a group.”
Not quite, I think they were more the Gallifreyan equivalent of Dead Poets Society when they were at the academy
...but I just want to see a return of Time Lord villains in general
The Valeyard and The Rani were both good ideas that get a bad rap because of the period of the show they come from.
I say get them out of the box and give em a bit of breathing space, see what they can do in the context of the new series, same goes for The Monk, Morbius etc...
Time Lords are
I don't think we'll see any more Time Lords (villains or otherwise) until Gallifrey is back. It would be pushing credulity for any more of them to have tried the Master's trick with the Chameleon Arch.
I hope that they do come back, though. It would be really annoying if Gallifrey just remained behind the crack for the rest of time!
I hope that they do come back, though. It would be really annoying if Gallifrey just remained behind the crack for the rest of time!
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