[swordman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zack06

Complicated no, irrelevant and wholly inaccurate, yes. .......................................
highly priced with sales vastly incomparable to the market leader. All this shows is that Apple haven't learned from their mistakes, and neither it seems, have their supporters.

I am afraid all logical argument is lost on those here, simple tables and pointless comments seem to be the order of the day where apple is concerned.

It's fascinating that a company losing market share and profit quarter upon quarter is according to some having no problems at all. In fact the launch of the 5c was in no way meant to address any of these issues and apple was simply carrying out its normal course of business.

The fact that the iphone has been responsible for two thirds of all apples profits and maybe the biggest consumer product ever. Apple thought "Hey lets do away with the 5 and make a second plastic cheap phone, thats what we have done with other products, bound to work"

This was all based upon a post that was designed (supposedly) to attack apple. the sad is they then wonder why such a bad rep is given to apple fanboys

[calico_pie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zack06

Complicated no, irrelevant and wholly inaccurate, yes.

Apple isn't just some entrant in the mobile market chugging along and experiencing some minor fluctuations, they are haemorrhaging profit and market share at a very noticeable rate.

Your analogy makes no sense as Apple have not started from a low point in the mobile market like Google did. Apple was the very first entrant into the modern form of the mobile market. The iPhone redefined the smartphone segment and gave Apple an unparalleled head start.

To say or insinuate that Apple's current predicament is just a minor blip not only shows lack of thinking and understanding, it shows a severe oversight on the issues and factors that are causing this for Apple on your part.

Their profits have been falling for 3 years consecutively and their market share has rapidly diminished worldwide. The only reason their shareholders are placated is because of the large cash reserves Apple has. But at this rate of deterioration, it may not be long before they are forced to access those reserves, alarming shareholders and causing panic and doubt in the process. The iPhone 5S sold less than the 5 at launch and there has been no evidence whatsoever that the iPhone 5C is a success.

It's plainly obvious that Apple are heading towards a very difficult situation in the mobile market, Android has a grip on all areas of the market from the top down, and Apple seems to be finding it harder and harder to compete with it in the high-end. Developers are flocking to Android and they are losing one of their remaining trump cards in quality apps and good returns for developers. This really is going to turn into the Mac vs. Windows scenario from the late 80s and 90s.

Apple made the mistake of arrogance then, and allowed Windows to take 90% of the market and force them into bankruptcy, and the same will happen again with Android. The iPhone seems to be heading towards a niche product future, highly priced with sales vastly incomparable to the market leader. All this shows is that Apple haven't learned from their mistakes, and neither it seems, have their supporters.

Re BIB

I did not know that.

Do you have a source?

I thought last year was the first year they'd fallen.

And the market share thing is hugely over played due much more of the market being made up of lower priced products.

[Zack06]

Quote:

Originally Posted by calico_pie

Re BIB

I did not know that.

Do you have a source?

I thought last year was the first year they'd fallen.

And the market share thing is hugely over played due much more of the market being made up of lower priced products.

My bad, I meant to say 3 consecutive quarters, rather than years, however, still shocking nonetheless, considering profits have still been falling even after two major product launches.

http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...ults-iphone-5c

Just to put that into perspective, Samsung have had a run of 9 quarters straight of profit rises, coinciding with Apple's fall in profits. This goes back to my original point that it's clearly not Apple's time any more.

[calico_pie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zack06

My bad, I meant to say 3 consecutive quarters, rather than years, however, still shocking nonetheless, considering profits have still been falling even after two major product launches.

http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...ults-iphone-5c

Just to put that into perspective, Samsung have had a run of 9 quarters straight of profit rises, coinciding with Apple's fall in profits. This goes back to my original point that it's clearly not Apple's time any more.

Not quite a downward trend after one year then.

Profits still falling after two major product launches? I didn't think there had been a full quarter's worth of figures since those launches. Has there?

9 quarters straight of profit rises, coinciding with Apple's fall in profits? But I thought you'd just said you got that wrong? Do you mean three quarters, and not 9?

I also thought Samsung were expected to be about to report a pretty substantial fall in profits. Is that not the case?

If there's anything in this, it's that the market is simply maturing, becoming more saturated, and a decline in revenues / profits for anyone is hardly unsurprising.

[tdenson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by calico_pie

Profits still falling after two major product launches? I didn't think there had been a full quarter's worth of figures since those launches. Has there?
.

Indeed, I think there was barely two weeks. Hardly surprising then for product sales to be falling going up to the annual release cycle. Let's wait and see what the quarter just finished brings, then we can make an objective assessment of how things are going for Apple.

[calico_pie]

I'm sure swordman will be the first to post anything on here about it, what with his general interest in all this sort of stuff.

[swordman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdenson

Let's wait and see what the quarter just finished brings, then we can make an objective assessment of how things are going for Apple.

Oxymoron anyone

[Zack06]

Quote:

Originally Posted by calico_pie

Not quite a downward trend after one year then.

Profits still falling after two major product launches? I didn't think there had been a full quarter's worth of figures since those launches. Has there?

9 quarters straight of profit rises, coinciding with Apple's fall in profits? But I thought you'd just said you got that wrong? Do you mean three quarters, and not 9?

I also thought Samsung were expected to be about to report a pretty substantial fall in profits. Is that not the case?

If there's anything in this, it's that the market is simply maturing, becoming more saturated, and a decline in revenues / profits for anyone is hardly unsurprising.

I think these are fairly obvious questions which would have been answered on proper reading of my post.

No it is 9 quarters, it coincided because it has been happening in the midst of Apple's profit decline. Their profits have been rising while Apple's have been falling. Indeed Samsung have reported a profit decline for the most recent quarter, but it comes at a time when they have not launched any products. They don't tend to launch their flagship products in Autumn but choose Spring instead.

This wasn't the case for Apple though, the company is still seeing profit drops even after two product launches (iPhone 5C and 5S), so there really is no sugar-coating that fact.

As for your last point, the market is still expanding, but not so much at the top end, any growth there seems to be claimed by Android. Apple will face dramatically diminishing returns as all of their competitors have variants competing in the low and mid-range where the market is still expanding.

[Night Hawk]

All consumer electronics markets expand in the same way:

New product (in this case, fingertip touchscreen smartphone) breaks.

Market initially restricted to early adopters, product expensive.

More brands enter market and dilute it.

Market then expands downwards as cheaper versions arrive.

Apple and Samsung follow differing strategies:

Apple specialise in mid-high end and preserve margin/reputation.

Samsung trying to maximise sales by offering low/mid and high end products.

Absolutely nothing to see here - both Apple and Samsung doing well at what Apple and Samsung respectively do.

Windows Phone/Blackberry story is far more interesting.

But for what it's worth, I am very happy with my 5c and believe it is a much better buy than the 5 (because of the radio hardware inside).

But I won't insult anyone that prefers any of the other smartphones on the market.

Variety is the spice of life!

[alan1302]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Night Hawk

New product (in this case, fingertip touchscreen smartphone) breaks.

Market initially restricted to early adopters, product expensive.

More brands enter market and dilute it.

Market then expands downwards as cheaper versions arrive.

Apple and Samsung follow differing strategies:

Apple specialise in mid-high end and preserve margin/reputation.

Samsung trying to maximise sales by offering low/mid and high end products.

I do wish other posters on here would take note of the above - especially the way in which Samsung and Apple make their money. Both in different way - but both successful.

[calico_pie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zack06

I think these are fairly obvious questions which would have been answered on proper reading of my post.

No it is 9 quarters, it coincided because it has been happening in the midst of Apple's profit decline. Their profits have been rising while Apple's have been falling. Indeed Samsung have reported a profit decline for the most recent quarter, but it comes at a time when they have not launched any products. They don't tend to launch their flagship products in Autumn but choose Spring instead.

This wasn't the case for Apple though, the company is still seeing profit drops even after two product launches (iPhone 5C and 5S), so there really is no sugar-coating that fact.

As for your last point, the market is still expanding, but not so much at the top end, any growth there seems to be claimed by Android. Apple will face dramatically diminishing returns as all of their competitors have variants competing in the low and mid-range where the market is still expanding.

It hasn't coincided for 9 quarters though, has it? Not if Apple's decline has only been over 3 quarters.

And I don't know why you are talking about falling profits since the launch of the last iPhones - they haven't reported a full quarter's results since they launched yet!

The new iPhones had only been on sale for a few weeks out of the last reported quarter.

Most of 2013 was pretty quiet for new products which probably explains a big part of results. I suspect the next lot will be quite different.

[alanwarwic]

http://reuters.com/article/idUSBREA0...40111?irpc=932
Margins at AT&T and Verizon approach 50% but t-mobiles gaining customers means that price war has reverberations.
People will certainly be buying contract phones less this year. I'd guess that is a good two thirds of Apple's US and UK business.

2014 could certainly be the year of the discounted iPhone. The 5c has plenty of wriggle room. Even at £200 less it can profit big.

[tdenson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zack06

I
This wasn't the case for Apple though, the company is still seeing profit drops even after two product launches (iPhone 5C and 5S), so there really is no sugar-coating that fact.

Sorry, don't quite understand that - do you work in Apple's accounting department ? As far as I am aware the latest quarter they reported on only had two weeks of the new phones - which would have been completely negated by a complete lack of sales the two weeks between their launch and availability, but perhaps you are privy to their very latest quarter's results.

[calico_pie]

5S/5C release 20 Sep.

Quarter ended 28 Sep.

You sound very knowledgeable Zack - are we missing something?

[tdenson]

Pray do tell Zack. If what you are saying is true we can do a bit of short selling of Apple stock and make a bob or two

[swordman]

Not sure I would hold on to it for too much longer in any event

[tdenson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordman

Not sure I would hold on to it for too much longer in any event

And I'm not sure you understand the basics of the stock market. Whether or not I own any Apple stock is irrelevant. Selling short is selling stock you *don't* own, and then buying it back again when the price drops.

[swordman]

As you will not be able to do this the comment was purely in the manner in was written. However my reply was in reference to the buying back of any stock as the price will continue to drop, negating said profit.

Good to know you think the stock is on the way down though

[tdenson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordman

As you will not be able to do this the comment was purely in the manner in was written. However my reply was in reference to the buying back of any stock as the price will continue to drop, negating said profit

You obviously still don't understand the stock market. Here's a quick Janet & John tutorial in selling short -

When you sell short you "borrow" the shares with a promise to return them by a certain date and you immediately sell them. At this point you don't own any shares but you need to give them back by the end date. At any point in that period you can buy the shares (this is called covering them) with the money you made selling them. Once covered, you are not subject to any price fluctuations because your only obligation is to give back the same number of shares you borrowed.

So your comment above about a continued price fall negating said profit is just nonsense.

Quote:

Good to know you think the stock is on the way down though

Here we go again, misquoting. It was Zack who was predicting results would be poor this quarter. I simply said IF that's the case then ....

This stock thing is fascinating. ISTR when the stock dipped to 400 from its all time high the naysayers here were saying it was only going one way (i.e. down). Currently stands at 550 with probably some good figures about to come in.

[alanwarwic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by calico_pie

I...The new iPhones had only been on sale for a few weeks out of the last reported quarter.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdenson

Indeed, I think there was barely two weeks. Hardly surprising then for product sales to be falling going up to the annual release cycle....

For those 2 weeks I'd suggest the figure was close to the very same 9 million that Apple sold to resellers and direct.
But obviously in that case there was never any 9 million added to 'mobile market share' in those 2 weeks.

Likely, the networks adjusted their strategies and people started to accept the iPhone 5c in contracts, that selling more than the 5s by finance year end.