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Vodafone and O2 4G experience thread


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Old 06-02-2016, 12:23
M1kos
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Lol well said^^
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Old 06-02-2016, 13:07
Pedro_C
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Previously on DS...
It was suggested that Vodafone would not wish to use 1800MHz for 4G when they have 2600MHz...

I've come across at least one CTIL mast that is wired for 800/900/1800/2100 with no input capable for 2600MHz. This would mean that they could easily deploy 4G 1800, whereas 2600MHz would need different panels fitted or an addition panel.
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Old 06-02-2016, 13:20
Skippy2005
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I think all data roaming is through your home network APN, like all roaming SMS will also go through your home networks SMS service centre. I think only outbound calls might stay fully on your roaming network, which is why these are the only type of activity which required pay as you go users in some countries to dial call-back codes to use (to prevent them spending more than their credit). Since all the data goes through the home carriers APN, they can use their own billing system without waiting for the partner network to send any usage details back.

I assume Vodafone makes the economics of World Traveller work by doing reciprocal deals with networks to have low wholesale roaming rates. Vodafone's in a particularly good position to do this because they can go to AT&T (for example, I don't know if they've actually done this with AT&T) and say 'give us preferential rates on your network in exchange for preferential rates on our networks across the world'. Vodafone can then afford to offer World Traveller, and AT&T their own version of it.

I'd guess Vodafone has worked out if they offer World Traveller in a country they make more money than if they don't (assuming they have access to cheap enough wholesale rates). If I go to a World Traveller country I usually pay the £5/day access fee, but if Vodafone don't offer it I'll buy a local SIM and put that in my MiFi rather than pay Vodafone whatever crazy amount they normally charge outside the EU. This means with World Traveller I'd pay them more like £70 on a 2 week trip, instead of nothing (I know this is more expensive than a local sim but it's way more convenient).

The original list of World Traveller countries were primarily countries where Vodafone had networks anyway, but I guess they'll have made more deals over time.
Yes that makes sense, as my apn didn't change and when you went into about on the iPhone it was connected to AT&T but the carrier was still Vodafone. I wasn't able to use VoLTE but I imagine that's a carrier thing. I didn't have to add +44 either I just dialled as normal 07 or 01, now whether that was dial assist that took care of that I don't know. BUT, I tried all the networks Verizon, TM, Sprint and another but my phone would only lock to AT&T so yes again you must be right about the agreement. I was in DC and NYC and as I said it would only roam into AT&T. Thanks

During peak times AT&T was rubbish at data but as you can imagine NYC is rather busy during rush hour. Thankfully I was able to use AT&T free wifi everywhere also which was good, subway coverage is very good as they rolling out antennas below ground too to help between stations. Excellent I say!
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Old 06-02-2016, 14:23
LegendaryAced
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That is considered good speeds in Brighton and Hove in peak times. It is embarrassing!

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cpng
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Old 06-02-2016, 16:54
beans0ntoast
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Previously on DS...
It was suggested that Vodafone would not wish to use 1800MHz for 4G when they have 2600MHz...

I've come across at least one CTIL mast that is wired for 800/900/1800/2100 with no input capable for 2600MHz. This would mean that they could easily deploy 4G 1800, whereas 2600MHz would need different panels fitted or an addition panel.
That would make sense, so that Voda can help their 800 by using their 1800 fr a bit more capacity, if providing 2600 would be problematic.

Chances are, 1800 could be sent through the same input as 2100, if that's how EE do it. Meaning that anywhere that has 3G2100 from CTIL could also have 4G1800.
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Old 06-02-2016, 18:02
interactiv-uk
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That would make sense, so that Voda can help their 800 by using their 1800 fr a bit more capacity, if providing 2600 would be problematic.

Chances are, 1800 could be sent through the same input as 2100, if that's how EE do it. Meaning that anywhere that has 3G2100 from CTIL could also have 4G1800.
As far as I remember it is on the 900MHz panel as 900 and 1800 are quarter or half wave or something along those lines.. They work together anyway!!
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Old 06-02-2016, 19:21
Skippy2005
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As far as I remember it is on the 900MHz panel as 900 and 1800 are quarter or half wave or something along those lines.. They work together anyway!!
Vodafone are deploying 1800 for 2G it seems to be on every CTIL mast I've checked, I think that's the plan so they can free another 5mhz for 3G.
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Old 06-02-2016, 19:29
Skippy2005
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Vodafone are deploying 1800 for 2G it seems to be on every CTIL mast I've checked, I think that's the plan so they can free another 5mhz for 3G.
I wonder if they will go for a nationwide 2x10 @ 3G900 then move there 2100 over to 4G, 2x15mhz @ 2100 which is widely accessible on most handsets will be better than 5.8mhz @ 1800mhz, just a thought? Or even 2x10mhz @2100 and leave 5mhz for 3G.
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Old 06-02-2016, 19:51
Pedro_C
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As far as I remember it is on the 900MHz panel as 900 and 1800 are quarter or half wave or something along those lines.. They work together anyway!!
A 900MHz half wave dipole would be a full wavelength for 1800 which would not work. However, an 1800MHz half wave dipole will be quarter wave for 900MHz which would work.

It's always better to have an antenna too small than too big.
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Old 06-02-2016, 20:03
lightspeed2398
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I wonder if they will go for a nationwide 2x10 @ 3G900 then move there 2100 over to 4G, 2x15mhz @ 2100 which is widely accessible on most handsets will be better than 5.8mhz @ 1800mhz, just a thought? Or even 2x10mhz @2100 and leave 5mhz for 3G.
I imagine that would work especially as they are densifiying their network as they get all the new CTIL masts. 15MHz of Band 1 would be a good boost.
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Old 06-02-2016, 20:08
beans0ntoast
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As far as I remember it is on the 900MHz panel as 900 and 1800 are quarter or half wave or something along those lines.. They work together anyway!!
Yeah, you're right, 1800 is double the frequency of 900 so half the wavelength.

If I remember the correct formula, the wavelength is 33.3cm at 900MHz and 16.6cm at 1800MHz - so you are correct, 1800 is half the wavelength of 900.

2100 would need a different panel as it's wavelength is 14.2cm - totally unrelated to both 1800 and 900!
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Old 06-02-2016, 20:16
beans0ntoast
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Vodafone are deploying 1800 for 2G it seems to be on every CTIL mast I've checked, I think that's the plan so they can free another 5mhz for 3G.
That's a good idea, didn't think of that. 5.7MHz (or however much it is) on 4G1800 won't deliver the best of speeds (especially since Vodafone have plenty of 2600) - however, getting some valuable 900 onto 3G (instead of 2G) would be better. Think about it this way, 900 has better coverage than 1800, so upgrading the 3G network would help with regards to call quality and data on non-4G devices.

I wonder if they will go for a nationwide 2x10 @ 3G900 then move there 2100 over to 4G, 2x15mhz @ 2100 which is widely accessible on most handsets will be better than 5.8mhz @ 1800mhz, just a thought? Or even 2x10mhz @2100 and leave 5mhz for 3G.
Do they need to move the 2100 to 4G just yet though? If Vodafone are running out of capacity in some areas, surely it'd be better off rolling out more 2600? If they were getting desperate, they could use the 1800 as well - there are plenty of options.

O2 are more precarious though - they just have 800, and a small amount of 1800 - if the 3/O2 deal doesn't go through, O2 are probably better off buying Voda's 1800 (because Voda already have 2600) in exchange for some 800, 900 or 2100. That way, O2 would have a bit more 1800 to deal with problematic areas that are congested on 4G.
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Old 06-02-2016, 20:56
Skippy2005
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That's a good idea, didn't think of that. 5.7MHz (or however much it is) on 4G1800 won't deliver the best of speeds (especially since Vodafone have plenty of 2600) - however, getting some valuable 900 onto 3G (instead of 2G) would be better. Think about it this way, 900 has better coverage than 1800, so upgrading the 3G network would help with regards to call quality and data on non-4G devices.



Do they need to move the 2100 to 4G just yet though? If Vodafone are running out of capacity in some areas, surely it'd be better off rolling out more 2600? If they were getting desperate, they could use the 1800 as well - there are plenty of options.

O2 are more precarious though - they just have 800, and a small amount of 1800 - if the 3/O2 deal doesn't go through, O2 are probably better off buying Voda's 1800 (because Voda already have 2600) in exchange for some 800, 900 or 2100. That way, O2 would have a bit more 1800 to deal with problematic areas that are congested on 4G.
I really don't think Vodafone would sell it to o2, the 5.8mhz @1800 is very valuable to them on 2G, I did read somewhere it was Voda's intentions to move another 5mhz of 900 to 3G giving them 2x10mhz, I can get
10-12mb of 3G on 900 MIMO so imagine what they can achieve with 10mhz, I don't think Voda have a capacity issue at the moment but rolling 2100 out on 3G is an easy transfer to 4G later, plus as many handsets support 2100 4G as 2600 does, there 1400mhz that they purchased last year is the tricky one as now handset support it yet.

You could CA 2100 and 2600 for some stupid speeds and capacity.
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Old 06-02-2016, 21:26
Ajanni
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I thought vodafone support dc-hspa+ in the 900mhz band, does that require them to have 10mhz in use for 3g.
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Old 06-02-2016, 22:11
Stereo Steve
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3O2 is going through in some form. Probably seriously paired down but it will still be a viable network in place of 2 networks hamstrung by spectrum.
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Old 06-02-2016, 22:37
beans0ntoast
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3O2 is going through in some form. Probably seriously paired down but it will still be a viable network in place of 2 networks hamstrung by spectrum.
That's good, because Three have got the 2100MHz 3G network rolled out nicely, yet O2 have got 3G900 that is either rolled out or in the process of being rolled out.

The combined network can then have 3G900 for coverage and indoor capabilities, with the 2100 for capacity (they'll probably need all of their 2100, because O2 has a much larger user base, particularly with MVNOs). Three's 1800 can be merged with O2's 1800 for more capacity. And as for the 800 - possibly split between data only and Super Voice? Though if they can get 3G900 on all masts, they won't need voice on 800MHz as much.

Also, if 3/O2 can get 900 on every mast - that'll be every CTIL and every MBNL mast, they won't need 2G900. I am aware that a lot of O2 customers don't have smartphones, but if they are still stuck on 2G only phones, they can "vote with their feet" and move to Voda or EE - the latter might be looking at shutting down 3G before 2G, from what I have read on the EE thread (though I hope that is not the case!).

I suspect that 3/O2 won't be able to access any of the 700MHz auctions though, when they take place - and they might have to give up some spectrum.

One relevant question (that I hope someone can answer): I read earlier on the forum (a few pages back) that Vodafone will be allowed access to some 1400MHz spectrum. Will either Three or O2 have access to some 1400? Because if they do, they might have to give it up as part of the merger?

Edit: According to here: https://www.telegeography.com/produc...e-uk-three-uk/ it looks as though both Voda and Three will get 20MHz of 1400MHz. (That's 2x10, if that's how they pair up the spectrum.) Wouldn't be surprised if Three had to give up their 1400 - would that 1400 then go to EE, Voda, split between both of them, or back to the previous owner?
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Old 06-02-2016, 22:46
beans0ntoast
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I really don't think Vodafone would sell it to o2, the 5.8mhz @1800 is very valuable to them on 2G, I did read somewhere it was Voda's intentions to move another 5mhz of 900 to 3G giving them 2x10mhz, I can get
10-12mb of 3G on 900 MIMO so imagine what they can achieve with 10mhz, I don't think Voda have a capacity issue at the moment but rolling 2100 out on 3G is an easy transfer to 4G later, plus as many handsets support 2100 4G as 2600 does, there 1400mhz that they purchased last year is the tricky one as now handset support it yet.

You could CA 2100 and 2600 for some stupid speeds and capacity.
If you wanted stupid speeds and capacity, you'd be better CA'ing 1800 and 2600, as per how EE are doing things. I've heard reports of some people getting 150Mbps on EE's 4G+, which I believe is CA of 1800 and 2600.

I know that you have a differing opinion to me, but in my opinion, the 1800 is better off on 4G than 2G. Voda (and O2) have got 900 for 2G, and when VoLTE gets going, they won't even need 2G - get the whole of 900 across to 3G (for coverage and capacity) - that way 2100 might be able to be used for 4G, if capacity is required. If 1800 wasn't switched to 4G (a la O2), then people on basic 2G phones would still have some coverage (albeit more limited than 3G900) when 900 gets switched to 3G in its entirety - which would act as a warning to those on 2G only phones to either switch devices, network, or lose signal in certain areas. Finally, after plenty of warning, get the 1800 to 4G.

It's a bit like what happened with televisions - analogue was switched off, digital was boosted up in power. Anyone who didn't have a digital compatible TV/set top box lost their reception. The same could apply for mobile phones - switch 2G off, increase the capacity on 3G for higher quality calls and data that is usable. Anyone who doesn't have at least a 3G compatible phone loses their signal. And 3G phones are as cheap as £30 these days.
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Old 06-02-2016, 22:55
Skippy2005
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If you wanted stupid speeds and capacity, you'd be better CA'ing 1800 and 2600, as per how EE are doing things. I've heard reports of some people getting 150Mbps on EE's 4G+, which I believe is CA of 1800 and 2600.

I know that you have a differing opinion to me, but in my opinion, the 1800 is better off on 4G than 2G. Voda (and O2) have got 900 for 2G, and when VoLTE gets going, they won't even need 2G - get the whole of 900 across to 3G (for coverage and capacity) - that way 2100 might be able to be used for 4G, if capacity is required. If 1800 wasn't switched to 4G (a la O2), then people on basic 2G phones would still have some coverage (albeit more limited than 3G900) when 900 gets switched to 3G in its entirety - which would act as a warning to those on 2G only phones to either switch devices, network, or lose signal in certain areas. Finally, after plenty of warning, get the 1800 to 4G.

It's a bit like what happened with televisions - analogue was switched off, digital was boosted up in power. Anyone who didn't have a digital compatible TV/set top box lost their reception. The same could apply for mobile phones - switch 2G off, increase the capacity on 3G for higher quality calls and data that is usable. Anyone who doesn't have at least a 3G compatible phone loses their signal. And 3G phones are as cheap as £30 these days.
My i hear perfectly what your saying and my opinions don't really come into as I'm sure I read these things at some point but plans do change, so do you think 1800 and 2600 would be better, I would have thought 2100 and 2600 would be as I thought 2100 would have more capacity than 1800, or are you talking about coverage?
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Old 06-02-2016, 23:11
beans0ntoast
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My i hear perfectly what your saying and my opinions don't really come into as I'm sure I read these things at some point but plans do change, so do you think 1800 and 2600 would be better, I would have thought 2100 and 2600 would be as I thought 2100 would have more capacity than 1800, or are you talking about coverage?
I know that EE use 1800 and 2600 combined and it works perfectly fine, some users have reported 150Mbps using that.

Chances are, 2100 and 2600 together would be even faster, though as for coverage, it wouldn't be any different using CA as CA would be limited by 2600 - having the highest frequency, so lowest coverage from a single mast at a given power level.

You'd get more CA coverage using 1800 instead of 2100, though that would be if you set up 800 and 1800 CA'd together (which I know O2 have done in a few places).

I'd personally leave at least some 2100 for 3G devices, but if VoLTE comes along, then:
1) 2G/3G won't be used as much for calls
2) If 3G900 gets put on every mast, then:
2a) 3G900 coverage will be very similar to 2G900
3) 2G900 gets moved across to 3G900, leaving just 2G1800 for legacy 2G devices (assuming 1800 is being used for 2G instead of 4G)
4) Thanks to increased 3G capacity on the 900MHz band, 3G2100 can then be refarmed to 4G2100.
5) At a given time in the future (obviously lots of warning in advance!) 2G1800 can then be refarmed to 4G1800, leaving 3G900 for calls for non-VoLTE users and 3G900 for calls and data on 3G devices (2G only devices must be upgraded)
6) When VoLTE has taken over for the vast majority of calls (i.e. everyone has a VoLTE capable phone - probably at least 10 years in the future) they could think about getting the 3G900 across to 4G - leaving a 4G only network (and 5G, if and when that happens). But that is at least 10 years in the future as everyone will need VoLTE to work properly.

If 4G had launched with voice from the start, and it was easy for all 4G devices to support 4G voice, then the transition from 2G to 4G would have been so much better.

As for getting rid of 3G before 2G - that will cause big problems as it would result in anyone without a 4G device suddenly losing their Internet connection.
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Old 06-02-2016, 23:23
Pedro_C
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Take in mind EE is using 20MHz of 1800MHz which is why the speed whereas O2/Voda only have 5.8MHz each. O2 and Voda have more than 17MHz on 2100MHz so if Voda want speed, they're best off doing 2100MHz and 2600MHz

Vodafone CZ use 800 (10MHz), 900 (3MHz), 1800 (20MHz) and 2100MHz (10MHz) for 4G, with 1800 and 2100 in urban areas and 800 and 900 in rural ones. http://www.vodafone.cz/mapa-pokryti/

EDIT: Now using streetview to hunt down masts in the CZ. Disturbing how good I am at coverage map interpretation...
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Old 07-02-2016, 00:18
Everything Goes
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3O2 is going through in some form. Probably seriously paired down but it will still be a viable network in place of 2 networks hamstrung by spectrum.
Do you have a source for this?

The EU will not deicide until April and Ofcom who do have some influence in the decision have stated this week they do not want the merger to go ahead.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...d-three-merger
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Old 07-02-2016, 10:05
clewsy
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In fairness most customers just want a usable data connection so 3meg everywhere would be better than fast here and nothing somewhere else.

The VF/O2 rollout is making massive steps forward in coverage. If (let's hope so) the merger doesn't happen o2 could have a fairly decent network to work from as for Three ..they will have to really think about what to do next.
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Old 07-02-2016, 10:08
Stereo Steve
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Do you have a source for this?

The EU will not deicide until April and Ofcom who do have some influence in the decision have stated this week they do not want the merger to go ahead.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...d-three-merger
I have crystal balls.
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Old 07-02-2016, 10:16
jchamier
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BUT, I tried all the networks Verizon, TM, Sprint and another but my phone would only lock to AT&T so yes again you must be right about the agreement. I was in DC and NYC and as I said it would only roam into AT&T. Thanks
Phones with UK Vodafone SIMs in the USA can use AT&T or T-Mobile, but if left to 'automatic' will fall back to AT&T if both available. Phones with UK EE SIMs in the USA can use AT&T or T-mobile but if left to 'automatic' will fall back to T-Mobile if both available.

Neither EE nor Vodafone have roaming agreements with Verizon or Sprint - probably as these networks couldn't be used for years due to different technology. Only with LTE has these network names starting appearing on our phones. One day we will be able to use these LTE networks with VoLTE and roam, but its a few years away.
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Old 07-02-2016, 11:05
Everything Goes
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I have crystal balls.
Speculation stated as fact lol
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