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Vodafone and O2 4G experience thread
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M1kos
20-02-2016
2600 doesnt propergate very well in my experience 2100 is noticeably better
d123
20-02-2016
Originally Posted by M1kos:
“2600 doesnt propergate very well in my experience 2100 is noticeably better”

Where have you experienced 2600 that isn't running underpowered and being constrained? I don't think it's being used to its full potential yet, much like most 4G spectrum.
M1kos
20-02-2016
Why would it be constrained there is no need it's 15db weaker approx than 800 on vo2
Pedro_C
20-02-2016
At 4KM from a 2600MHz mast, line of sight, I can get a signal of around -90dBm.

By line of sight, I mean literally sight eg I can see, with my eyes, the tower (and antennas with a long lens)
beans0ntoast
20-02-2016
Originally Posted by d123:
“They can do a similar job with their 2600 and still retain capacity on 3G by not removing any 2100 spectrum from there.”

And if they're really short of spectrum (not that they will be anytime soon) then they can call on their 1800 for some more 4G spectrum. Alright, its only 2x 5.8MHz, so won't give breakneck speeds, but its there if it is needed!

Alternatively, a more complex scenario would be:
1) Refarm 2100 to 4G
2) Refarm 900 to 3G, so that 3G speeds/capacity doesn't suffer
3) Save 5MHz of 2G900 until 2G1800 is used everywhere (assuming that 1800 remains on 2G, rather than moved to 4G) - then have all of 900 as 3G

One day in the indeterminate future, when 2G is no longer a requirement, get the 1800 to 4G.

I still feel that 3G is more capable and more suitable than 2G - particularly when used on 900, so that it gives more range and coverage. (I tried EE's 2G a few minutes ago and it came up with network communication issues!)
japaul
20-02-2016
Originally Posted by Skippy2005:
“Hi, as we know rumour has it Vodafone are to add another 5mhz block to 3G900, has anyone had experience of it yet or if not any evidence as to when rollout might begin? ”

I normally keep an eye out for anything new but I haven't see any sign of a second 3G900 carrier.

However you've got me thinking. If they're preparing for this to happen soon then I'd expect to see some evidence that another 5MHz is being cleared of 2G. If you look here 900MHz is quite fragmented and they need 5MHz of contiguous spectrum.

Voda's existing 3G900 sits in that 5MHz block at the bottom (uplink 880.1 - 885.1). Their next block is only 4.8MHz wide. It's possible to get away with running a bit less than 5MHz (as indeed they and Three do at 2100) but it isn't ideal. Therefore they would probably pick 5MHz from the 902.3 - 910.1 block. If so and they are clearing it I'd expect to find a 5MHz slice within this no longer being used. The allocations used tend to be in local clusters so you need to travel a bit to be sure. I think I'll do a bit of monitoring on what frequencies are being used (or not used) as I'm doing a bit of travelling over the next week.
Skippy2005
20-02-2016
Originally Posted by japaul:
“I normally keep an eye out for anything new but I haven't see any sign of a second 3G900 carrier.

However you've got me thinking. If they're preparing for this to happen soon then I'd expect to see some evidence that another 5MHz is being cleared of 2G. If you look here 900MHz is quite fragmented and they need 5MHz of contiguous spectrum.

Voda's existing 3G900 sits in that 5MHz block at the bottom (uplink 880.1 - 885.1). Their next block is only 4.8MHz wide. It's possible to get away with running a bit less than 5MHz (as indeed they and Three do at 2100) but it isn't ideal. Therefore they would probably pick 5MHz from the 902.3 - 910.1 block. If so and they are clearing it I'd expect to find a 5MHz slice within this no longer being used. The allocations used tend to be in local clusters so you need to travel a bit to be sure. I think I'll do a bit of monitoring on what frequencies are being used (or not used) as I'm doing a bit of travelling over the next week.”

Excellent, would 2x5.8mhz @1800 and 2x4.8mhz @ 900 be ample bandwidth for 2G? Would I be right in saying they can prioritise the network so phones prefer 3G900/2100 from 4G fall back? Or put another way, can they prioritise 3G only handset to prefer 3G until absolutely necessary to switch down to 2G again this would free up capacity on 2G, do I make sense? Thanks
japaul
20-02-2016
Actually they would have slightly more 900 left as not all of the higher frequency block would be used for 3G so they would be left with 2 x 4.6 from the first block (sorry I incorrectly typed 4.8 above) plus 2 x 2.8 after refarming the higher block (2G doesn't require contiguous spectrum) leaving a total of 2 x 7.4MHz of 900 for 2G.

Without knowing Voda's current 2G loading and how many 2G sites they require that looks quite tight but if it was on an area by area basis and carefully planned it might be possible. If 1800 was added in then it would certainly be enough as Voda have always used 1800 quite sparingly preferring to have lots of small coverage 900 sites where capacity is needed. However I'm not sure if 2G1800 is in their plans as where it was used it seems to be disappearing.

On the priority part, yes they could do that but it would likely lead to a poorer service so I'm not sure it would be ideal.
mrgs12
20-02-2016
What is O2 4G footprint like now? Looking at the map it seems an awful lot of gaps with only about 20 months to go til end 2017. If you can get 2G now then you should be in the 4G coverage obligation by end of 2017 with claims that 98% indoor equates to 99% outside and hundreds of new masts from what I've read in articles or will it be computer predictions and just smoke and mirrors?
Skippy2005
20-02-2016
Originally Posted by japaul:
“Actually they would have slightly more 900 left as not all of the higher frequency block would be used for 3G so they would be left with 2 x 4.6 from the first block (sorry I incorrectly typed 4.8 above) plus 2 x 2.8 after refarming the higher block (2G doesn't require contiguous spectrum) leaving a total of 2 x 7.4MHz of 900 for 2G.

Without knowing Voda's current 2G loading and how many 2G sites they require that looks quite tight but if it was on an area by area basis and carefully planned it might be possible. If 1800 was added in then it would certainly be enough as Voda have always used 1800 quite sparingly preferring to have lots of small coverage 900 sites where capacity is needed. However I'm not sure if 2G1800 is in their plans as where it was used it seems to be disappearing.

On the priority part, yes they could do that but it would likely lead to a poorer service so I'm not sure it would be ideal.”


Yes of course forgive me, Voda have 17.4 MHz of 900 and not 14.8mhz which I was implying, I had a brain fart and got 2100 and 900 mixed up.
lightspeed2398
20-02-2016
Originally Posted by M1kos:
“2600 doesnt propergate very well in my experience 2100 is noticeably better”

Originally Posted by d123:
“Where have you experienced 2600 that isn't running underpowered and being constrained? I don't think it's being used to its full potential yet, much like most 4G spectrum.”

Don't know if you've seen on the EE thread but it's underpowered at the moment. Could be the same range as 2100 3G. Vodafone do need to crack on with that in some places as that will set them apart from o2 and Three. Where I've been on Vodafone 2600 I've had some cracking speeds. 126mbps in Manchester City Centre!
lightspeed2398
20-02-2016
Originally Posted by mrgs12:
“What is O2 4G footprint like now? Looking at the map it seems an awful lot of gaps with only about 20 months to go til end 2017. If you can get 2G now then you should be in the 4G coverage obligation by end of 2017 with claims that 98% indoor equates to 99% outside and hundreds of new masts from what I've read in articles or will it be computer predictions and just smoke and mirrors?”

Around here it's pretty good. It doesn't seem to have the long contiguous sections that EE's has, but it's pretty dense with all of the ex Vodafone masts. I think Mr. japaul did say that Ofcom used a lower definition of coverage than Vodafone so it may be slightly optimistic but they're still going to have to get good coverage on it and hurry up.
d123
20-02-2016
Originally Posted by lightspeed2398:
“Don't know if you've seen on the EE thread but it's underpowered at the moment.”

Yes, that was my point.
Denco1
20-02-2016
Originally Posted by japaul:
“I normally keep an eye out for anything new but I haven't see any sign of a second 3G900 carrier.
”

Forgive me if I'm wrong but have we seen any clear statement which shows Vodafone are intending to rollout another carrier of 900MHz. I remember a statement about more 900MHz 3G, but this could also mean 900MHz on sites which were previously 2100MHz 3G/900MHz 2G only. Hopefully they do have a long term plan of 2x10MHz 900MHz 3G though.
Also I take it it is possible to do DC-HSPA with non contiguous spectrum within the same band?

Originally Posted by lightspeed2398:
“ Where I've been on Vodafone 2600 I've had some cracking speeds. 126mbps in Manchester City Centre!”

Sounds good, have they finally expanded 2600MHz within MCR then?
Also any idea if carrier aggregation is activated outside London now, I remember a few of months ago the official line was carrier aggregation was not activated in MCR, and my person findings also seemed to reflect this.
lightspeed2398
20-02-2016
Originally Posted by Denco1:
“Sounds good, have they finally expanded 2600MHz within MCR then?
Also any idea if carrier aggregation is activated outside London now, I remember a few of months ago the official line was carrier aggregation was not activated in MCR, and my person findings also seemed to reflect this.”

Voda isn't my usual personal carrier, I only have a 2G phone with them at work. Where I've used it on my own I've just been on my iPhone 6 which doesn't do CA so the 126 was on the 2600 carrier only. I didn't see anything expansion but then I think they could have brought another one near the Spinningfields one online a few weeks back as I saw them one Sunday morning working on one that already had 4G doing a panel swap.
japaul
20-02-2016
Originally Posted by lightspeed2398:
“Around here it's pretty good. It doesn't seem to have the long contiguous sections that EE's has, but it's pretty dense with all of the ex Vodafone masts. I think Mr. japaul did say that Ofcom used a lower definition of coverage than Vodafone so it may be slightly optimistic but they're still going to have to get good coverage on it and hurry up.”

I'm afraid Ofcom's usual definition for coverage is different again to the one used for O2's obligation.

For 4G in their reports (and I think coverage maps), Ofcom use an RSRP threshold of -115dBm for outdoor and -105dBm for indoor which they arrived at based on empirical tests at what was needed for a reasonable service. Clearly Vodafone use something tougher than this which seems a bit severe really.

O2's coverage obligation is totally different as it needs to take into account speed (a minimum of 2Mb/s) and so is based on a more theoretical model calculating SINR. For measuring 4G on 10MHz of spectrum this specifies an SINR threshold of -4.1dB which is likely to be a pretty poor signal but is roughly the signal the standard says you need to achieve 2Mb/s.
japaul
20-02-2016
Originally Posted by Denco1:
“Forgive me if I'm wrong but have we seen any clear statement which shows Vodafone are intending to rollout another carrier of 900MHz. I remember a statement about more 900MHz 3G, but this could also mean 900MHz on sites which were previously 2100MHz 3G/900MHz 2G only. Hopefully they do have a long term plan of 2x10MHz 900MHz 3G though.
Also I take it it is possible to do DC-HSPA with non contiguous spectrum within the same band?”

No you're right, we aren't sure about their exact plans and more 3G900 could indeed mean what you say. It just got me thinking though, if I were to see a 5MHz sized hole starting to appear in their 2G spectrum then that would be a very big clue without actually needing to witness it for real!

A lot of early DC does indeed require adjacent spectrum including for the handsets to use it. Later versions don't and (I think) handsets that can do LTE CA can handle it too. If they were to deploy another 3G carrier on 900 I don't think DC would be that big a deal really as it will probably be more for the capacity. In any case if it really were a problem then exactly the same applies to O2 and it would be fairly simple to fix by each of them agreeing to swap an equal amount of spectrum so both their holdings were contiguous. It would be simple retuning the base stations on 2G as old carriers could be mapped one to one from the new holding.
mrgs12
21-02-2016
Originally Posted by japaul:
“I'm afraid Ofcom's usual definition for coverage is different again to the one used for O2's obligation.

For 4G in their reports (and I think coverage maps), Ofcom use an RSRP threshold of -115dBm for outdoor and -105dBm for indoor which they arrived at based on empirical tests at what was needed for a reasonable service. Clearly Vodafone use something tougher than this which seems a bit severe really.

O2's coverage obligation is totally different as it needs to take into account speed (a minimum of 2Mb/s) and so is based on a more theoretical model calculating SINR. For measuring 4G on 10MHz of spectrum this specifies an SINR threshold of -4.1dB which is likely to be a pretty poor signal but is roughly the signal the standard says you need to achieve 2Mb/s.”

I suspect the last few % they will fail on, lots of areas by me were 2G is non existent so this 800 will make very little difference, thick Cotswold stone houses and narrow streets and being nearly 2 miles from a mast but then most of the area is like that. And what about http://uk.businessinsider.com/david-...5-11?r=US&IR=T could this mean if no fixed line broadband is available you could request the mobile networks to provide with a solution?
interactiv-uk
21-02-2016
Originally Posted by japaul:
“No you're right, we aren't sure about their exact plans and more 3G900 could indeed mean what you say. It just got me thinking though, if I were to see a 5MHz sized hole starting to appear in their 2G spectrum then that would be a very big clue without actually needing to witness it for real!

A lot of early DC does indeed require adjacent spectrum including for the handsets to use it. Later versions don't and (I think) handsets that can do LTE CA can handle it too. If they were to deploy another 3G carrier on 900 I don't think DC would be that big a deal really as it will probably be more for the capacity. In any case if it really were a problem then exactly the same applies to O2 and it would be fairly simple to fix by each of them agreeing to swap an equal amount of spectrum so both their holdings were contiguous. It would be simple retuning the base stations on 2G as old carriers could be mapped one to one from the new holding.”

I'd be very surprised if spectrum swapping to create contiguous chunks wasn't already happening in each of the operators Beacon areas to get the most out of it. Don't forget the individual operators have responsibility for both networks in their respective build areas so have access to everything.
M1kos
24-02-2016
Vo2 4G now live from Torquay Hospital site major upgrade for the area
DevonBloke
24-02-2016
Originally Posted by M1kos:
“Vo2 4G now live from Torquay Hospital site major upgrade for the area”

Crikey, really? What, they've actually done some upgrades in Devon?
Wow.... wait, look....... flying pigs!! : )
Excellent.
EE on there too, haven't been there to see if they are 4G yet. EE map no good as it's about 4 months out of date. Imagine if Vod had 4G there but not EE...
Here are the panels... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.48...8i6656!6m1!1e1

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.48...8i6656!6m1!1e1
DevonBloke
24-02-2016
Well I can't get on the vod map either. Wanted to see if the Hospital coverage is showing.
It's not on O2's.
It is now eventually bringing up a "website down for maintenance" message though.
georgi_prodanov
24-02-2016
Will Vodafone run 4G on full power when they reach VoLTE?
M1kos
24-02-2016
Already on full power imo.
DevonBloke
24-02-2016
Originally Posted by georgi_prodanov:
“Will Vodafone run 4G on full power when they reach VoLTE?”

I don't think any network will run at full power except Three and EE 800Mhz.
Vodafone would need to get call fallback to 2G rather than 3G900.
Even then they have screwed themselves over because 800 could go quite a bit further for two reasons.
100Mhz lower and 4G is just much more robust so will work with a much lower signal than 2G.
They can't turn 800 up until all phones can do VoLTE and that's going to be a very long time.

Even EE will not be able to run 4G1800 at full tilt. it would still go beyond 2G1800 so it will have to be at probably 90-95% power.
EE and Three have the massive advantage though that their 800 is only available to VoLTE phones and so can be cranked right up since other phones won't see it.

I think Vodafone will just carry on and eventually we will be at 5G rollout and mark my words, after the total cock up that was LTE (with no mandatory voice), 5G will do voice out of the box.
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