All MNOs will have to 4G all their sites eventually since 4G will become the new base layer (replacing 2G, one day). 5G will then sit on top of the 4G layer for boosts in speed and capacity where needed.

EE will complete their 2G refresh/4G base layer before the end of 2017.
VF I imagine will be about 8 months to 1 year behind..
VF a bit limited at the mo as they are CSFB-ing to 3G900 and that's severely limiting the 800 footprint.
Should imagine they are aiming to get CSFB to 2G at some point though and that will make some difference to their 4G footprint in general.

As more data devices move to 4G from 3G, does this typically mean that the 3G cells are much more lightly loaded, thus don't breathe in as much/at all?

Yes & no. The data load is taken off but remember that voice traffic is still at the moment all being sent to 3G/2G. So there's still an element of load. The cell breathing effect will be reduced. 3G is still a bastard to work with. 4G should be able to exceed the 3G coverage of a cell on equivalent frequencies with proper optimisation and conditions.

Based on the pace CTIL are going at I'd have them finishing Nov/Dec. Still quite a lot of legacy sites but should get through them.

Vodafone already does CSFB to 2g, but doesn't choose to use it, I'm guessing because it can't handle the call volumes on its own right now, maybe if they rolled out VoLTE they could at some point, you'd think we'd see some sign of it at some point this year if they want to shut down 3g by 2020. Though call dropping is appaling at the moment due to the amount of areas still with a mixture of upgraded and non upgraded masts which don't work well together, to add in something else to the mix right now might not be a smart move.
As for your 2g/4g refresh timetables, I'd like you to be correct, but I have a feeling things will slip just that bit longer, I reckon EE will take until mid 2018 before all 2g/3g masts are done, VO2 might just get a layer albeit thin in places of 3g/4g by year end much like where EE are right now, but could take well into 2019 or 2020 before all masts get done,
Longer if they get bogged down in revisiting sites to add extra capacity due to some of the odd decisions taken early in the roll out program and the strange lack of rolling out additional capacity 4g bands by Vodafone and O2 in each other's half of the country.

Isn't 2G getting switched off in near future?
I think it's already been switched off in Australia, Singapore and the US.

For Voda/O2, I thought they'd bulk up 3G900 but move most of 3G2100 to 4G2100
Voda seem to be keener to refarm 3G2100 to 4G rather than use 4G2600 extensively.

Here 3G will with 95% probability go first. 2020 is VF's Europe wide target.

so why Voda refarm 2G900 to 3G900 i dont get it. when 3G gets switched off what will happen to 3G900?

Can't see it happening here any time soon, there are too many things using 2G for low speed data that can't easily be upgraded. 3G is more likely to be switched off first.

Refarm to 4G...... they don't need all that spectrum on 2G but if they shuffle 3G off U21 to U09 then they can open up another LTE channel on 2100 so makes sense to shuffle it. Why would they keep it on 2G if it's not needed there.

ok but if voda are going to switch of 3G in 2020 what will happen with the 3G900? all these upgrades and money spending?

Perhaps it's quite easy to re-farm 3G to 4G when they are ready? At the moment they will still have a lot of users with 3G only phones and their coverage is still appalling for 3G generally although that seems to be changing fast. By offering the full service they will compete with EE. Going 2G/4G only is still going to leave a lot of users without data for a year or 3.

On another matter didn't VOD used to offer a landline number on Red plans? So you could have a geographic number which was linked to your phone?

Australia is in process of shutting down 2G on their 3 networks, Telstra (biggest) has switched off, Optus is 1st of April 17, and Vodafone is 30 Sept 2017. AT&T in the US started turning off their 2G network on 31st Dec 2016. Singapore is shutting down by end April 2017.


I can see this being done carefully and slowly, as there are people (especially in corporates) using very old phones (think iPhone 3GS / Samsung Galaxy S3) that use tiny amounts of data but don't support 3G900. Vodafone is the only one talking about 3G switch off, by end 2020, and so they will be watching how many handsets. I don't think O2 has said anything.

Capacity moves are a different thing.

I have noticed on an application that the drawings say CTIL - Non Beacon and they have no TEF site reference. I wonder if O2 have to contribute as the site will be built by CTIL yet O2 currently are not using it.

I see on other applications they have Grow The Grid on which I have seen talked about on here but do we have any more details to understand what the VF plan actually is such as a press release - I appreciate they will not hand a list of sites out but there must be more information than "adding coverage in specific areas"

From what I've seen online, the Galaxy S3 does support 900MHz 3G. Don't know about the S or S2 though.
The iPhone 3G and 3GS does not support 3G900, though how many people are still using old 3GS' that have pretty much zero app support on a very old OS?

Shutting down 2G would make basic, non-3G phones obsolete, as well as smartphones that do not support 3G (like the iPhone 2G); however, switching off 3G (which is what Vodafone wants to do by the end of 2020) would make any non-4G phone into a basic phone with pretty much zero data access unless using Wi-Fi (there won't be any GPRS sites then but EDGE is still painfully slow unless for really basic stuff). And there's also a lot of non-VoLTE devices which would be shunted onto 2G for the calls, thus congesting up whatever small amount of 2G capacity Vodafone still has switched on.
Maybe this is why Vodafone aren't keen on refarming their 1800MHz spectrum (unlike O2), so that they can keep the 5MHz 1800 for 2G to compliment the small amount of 900MHz 2G for calls on non-VoLTE devices?

3G900 gets switched off. Network becomes 2G/4G/5G and spectrum gets used on something else. 3G to 4G refarm requires nothing it's the same hardware it's just all in software really (simplification but true). Upgrading to 3G900 will allow further upgrade easily in the future and provides a big benefit now.

Still have to keep 4G under 3G for voice so they'd have to keep their 800 under 2100 if they didn't have 3G900. Rate it is going though they'll be excellent in most places. 4G network still has a long way to go optimising wise even when most sites in an area are done. Once volte is done and people begin using just 4G they can either take 4G beyond 3G and do 2GCSFB in rural places or deploy 2 3G900 carriers and still take the coverage up slightly. But they'll have the flexibility to do it as suits their needs.

S2 supports it I think. There'll be still be a fair few U21 only devices. Ever dwindling number though. Most early smartphones or advanced feature phones will be dying battery wise and component wise. Probably some of the problem is corporate customers

The Samsung GS2 will be 9 years old in 2020. Will it still be working then? If it is, I'm not sure the network would care about them leaving due to 3G being switched off as they would be probably be a low spend customer.

Absolutely. I'd want 3G down to a single carrier as well by the end of 2018. Better for the 4G customers who care about high speed data.

The galaxy s2 definitely supported it as I used it in Thailand and connected to AIS's 900MHz 3G

Agreed. 3G will be pushed back to a very low speed service with possible congestion and anyone that cares about data will move to 4G. By the time it's switched off it simply won't matter.

Unlikely, corporates understand refresh cycles. I cannot imagine any that expect equipment to last 9 years.

If you mean m2m then that's a different matter, but they will nearly all support 2G anyway and have low throughput requirements.

Believe me some keep devices for that long! Most don't though and those that do are rapidly transitioning away.