I agree, money no object they would rollout 2600MHz everywhere.
But surely it will be costing Vodafone both money and time upgrading antennas, base stations and any other equipment which is fine for 800MHz but not 2600MHz. Presumably in addition they would also have to revisit sites to adjust the power output of 2600MHz etc.
I think Vodafone are more concerned at getting to over 90% 4G coverage than rolling out 2600MHz.

Even Three are going to try and get away with just 2x5MHz outside big cities, obviously they don't want to invest as much as Vodafone though.

I don't know much about CTIL but that's just my opinion on the situation, forgive me if it is completely inaccurate

What is the situation regarding the half of the country O2 are upgrading, are Vodafone planning to go back and install 2600MHz, or has the 50/50 CTIL thing stopped with Vodafone wanting to rollout faster than O2?

I still think that they're insane to do a 2x5mHz rollout. Not this thread's topic but didn't sprint in America try it and now they're rushing to build up capacity with Spark? Three at least have their fast 3G unlike Sprint though.

I think the same personally. I can already see how poorly 2x10MHz of 1800MHz is performing in some locations and I thought Three weren't upgrading masts until the backhaul was upgraded, so I doubt that is the issue.

Yes Sprint started with 2x5MHz on 1900MHz I think, which ended in disaster. They did go on a bit about Sprint Spark, using 2x5 or possibly 2x10MHz of 800MHz along with 20MHz of TDD-LTE at 2500MHz in addition to existing 1900MHz, but from what I understand they have massively reduced investment in Sprint Spark and scaled back the planned areas. Not that the TDD-LTE seemed to be much use anyway, poor building propagation and I assume Sprint had to pay device manufacturers a fair bit to have TDD-LTE devices and get them tested on there network.

This was my thinking too - they're going to need their 2600 outside major cities to deal with capacity issues in the medium term. 800 may cope fine now, but how long will it cope?

Admittedly, Vodafone are in quite an ideal situation, being likely to be the smallest operator with a decent amount of spectrum, but there's only so far 2x800@10mhz will go once the number of smart devices on the network goes beyond a certain critical mass.

Seems most disagree with me that they won't need 2600MHz out of cities then
I would have thought 2x10MHz would do them fine until the 700MHz auction where they could probably pick up at least another 2x10MHz of low band spectrum, and while rolling that out they could add 2600MHz to any sites which are particularly busy.

If 2x10MHz really won't be able to provide the capacity needed outside cities in a few years then all I can say is O2 and Three will need a miracle, merger or no merger.

My partner has just got herself a 4G phone and upgraded to a SIM only plan.

Around Oxford it says 4g is reliable indoors and out doors. The 15 min journey into the heart of the city saw 4G pop up once, then go after 15 seconds.

It says some maintenance is happening today,to improve 2g and 3g call and data coverage. Might this include the loss of 4g? This seems to be along the whole of our commute and has been happening for the last few days,

Is there a limit as to how much low frequency spectrum that they can hold. I know Ofcom proposed a limit of 2x27.5 on the Sub 1GHz side of things but did they ever implement it?If that includes 2g then will o2 / Voda be able to get any?

I think there is a limit, I think I remember reading about it when I was looking through the 2.3/3.4GHz auction.

But I think they will still be able to get another 10/15MHz of sub 1GHz spectrum. If they ban Vodafone and O2 from anymore sub 1GHz spectrum then Ofcom would raise very little money from the 700MHz auction.

I also think if Vodafone and O2 were banned from anymore sub 1GHz they would object to EE participating on the grounds that they have too much total spectrum.

All the sub 1GHz stuff was to protect EE and Three, EE now owns significantly more spectrum than anyone else and Three may become the largest network, I'd say Vodafone now needs protecting and not the other way round.

Results of the mergers and the 2.3/3.4GHz auction will probably have an impact on the sub 1GHz maximum allocation, but I still think Vodafone could/will buy at least 2x10MHz of 700MHz.

Is there any method behind VOD's 4G rollout? Down here in the SW, Truro, Kingsbridge and Tavistock are being done before Exeter or Plymouth get planned. Now I'm no city dweller and would rather stay away from those places and hide in a hedge and I think it's great that these random places are getting done, even if I'm not in one of them. But I can't see the commercial logic in it. It's not even like those 3 towns don't even have existing VOD 3G. Unless it is that special OS/VOD 3G that doesn't actually work.

Or is it simply down to backhaul and capacity? Perhaps there are C&W links in those places or summink?

VOD rolled out 3G to the big cities and towns first and then stopped dead. They don't seem to be following the same pattern with 4G. Maybe they have a big map of the UK and doing drinking games which involve a set of darts.

Yes they put the 2x27.5 MHz sub 1GHz cap in place for the 4G auction (so O2 and Vodafone are now at that limit) along with a 2x105 MHz overall spectrum cap (which EE hit with what they bought at the auction). Ofcom have a general duty to ensure optimum use of spectrum and to promote competition and if this is what they say should be in place then it will stand in the absence of any market changes.

Prior to the acquisition announcements for EE and O2, Ofcom suggested that the overall cap should rise to 310 MHz when 2300/3400 spectrum is auctioned (and it would also include the 1.4GHz SDL spectrum that Qualcomm hold if any of the networks buy that from Qualcomm).

However the acquisition announcements have complicated things. Ofcom considered the above suitable for a four network environment but it will need to be different if we only have three networks. Also, the holdings considered appropriate won't be their decision (although they will have a view that will be heard) as the assessments will be done by the CMA (for BTEE) and the EC (for 3O2). This is a problem in itself as one depends a bit on the other and there is an argument for one of the authorities to look at both deals. After this is settled Ofcom could come up with new rules for future auctions but they will need to take account of what has been decided by the CMA/EC.

Although this hasn't been verified, some people quite close to the BTEE deal have hinted that in BT's submission they are suggesting that having found EE's 2x5MHz of 800 somewhat so so performance wise, they are suggesting they acquire Three's holding so eventually the three remaining operators will all have 2x10 at 800. BT would then sell their existing 2600 plus another 5 MHz from EE which could be acquired by 3O2 who would likely need it. This would leave all the networks within the existing low frequency and overall spectrum caps. Three and EE's existing 800 spectrum sits alongside each other separate from O2's holding so might be better used by BTEE than 3O2 (who would require carrier aggregation to use it together).

What is shows though is that things get complicated when you try and engineer outcomes. Ofcom specifically allowed Three to buy 800 below the market price by guaranteeing them the spectrum at the reserve price. They did this because they wanted Three to remain competitive as they valued keeping four operators in the market. However the taxpayer will have got a rotten deal if the one who took the subsidy ends up being responsible for taking out another player and reducing the market to three players. Even worse if Three sell it to BTEE for a fat profit. Ofcom are keeping quiet on this situation!

Thanks for the detailed analysis japaul.
What will happen with the 25MHz of TDD-LTE spectrum BT hold? Would Vodafone or someone else be offered/have to buy this to make sure EE and Three did not fall foul of 2x105MHz overall or is unpaired spectrum exempt from this limit?

I like the look of the proposed spectrum allocations, it also explains why EE have not been keen to rollout much 800MHz yet, and why Three are only doing a thin rollout of 2x5MHz 800MHz 4G, not much point if they can just use cornerstones 4G.

Something which probably isn't being thought of at the moment but Three could probably manage with 2x15MHz of 3G at 2100MHz and 2x5MHz of 3G at 900MHz and refarm O2s 2x10MHz of 3G to 4G at 2100MHz.

Cat 9 devices on EE would be able to get headline speeds of 375mbps, either by 2x10MHz of 800MHz+2x20MHz of 1800MHz+2x20MHz of 2600MHz B7+B3+B20 or more likely 2x20MHz of 1800MHz+2x20MHz of 2600MHz+2x10MHz of 2600MHz B7+B7+B3.

The networks do seem to have led Ofcom a merry dance though. Perhaps they should have had two completely separate auctions for 800MHz and 2600MHz at different times to stop tactical game play and raise more money.

Thinking of changing my phone from a galaxy note 3 to a note 4, can anyone tell me which model will do 4g+ (cat 4 or 6) or if they all do as I'm struggling find the info, any equivalent sized phones which will also I can look at?

SM-N910F will do Cat 6 300mbps.

Yes, the 2600 TDD spectrum does count towards the limit (although the 1900-1920 TDD spectrum from the 3G auction that EE,O2 and Three hold doesn't count as it's still unclear if a use can be found for this).

However in counting the 2600 TDD spectrum you need to deduct a block from each operator's total so Vodafone say would only count 20MHz of it towards the 210MHz total despite having 25MHz.

If anyone wants a NFC sim for contactless payments, just pop into a Vodafone and show them the Vodafone wallet website. Stores apparently haven't been told to give them out but my store was happy to once I showed them the website.

In other news, Vodafone Broadband is launching this Wednesday, they seem pretty confident it won't be pushed back again before launch. They say it is supposed to be pretty competitive, so that may be something to look out for come Wednesday.

Or just use your 2mm thin contractless payment card from your bank that doesn't require batteries. We're not in America so I can't see many rushing for contractless payment via mobile when we already have it on our main bank cards, it is now more popular than cash in some stores.

As someone who has worked in tech for so long it's scary, I can't see why I'd really want to use my phone as a payment card (or travel pass) compared to a normal standalone card. Likewise, I'd not use a watch either as it's in an awkward place for me to touch it against a reader in most places.

It does seem 'cool' and a sign of the 'future' (wow) but it's going to be some time before I ditch my wallet even though I probably use my debit or credit card for 90% of purchases. In fact, I use cash only where a place doesn't take cards at all, which is increasingly rare (sadly that includes my local bus operator).

My bank hasn't issued me with a contactless card, the same with my friends, I think banks have placed age restrictions on them at the moment.

Personally I think paying by phone or watch is a great idea, I'm not saying I would go out with just a phone and no wallet but hopefully in 5yrs this will be possible.
As long as the solutions are secure enough I see no problem with it. If anything they can be more secure if phones contain fingerprint and retina scanners to verify payment.
Being able to store multiple cards on the same device will become really useful as well. In the demos of android pay you don't even have to select the relevant loyalty card it is all done automatically for you.

Natwest tie the ability to get a contactless card to the ability to be trusted to have a card that works "offline" - without needing every transaction to be confirmed immediately, so there's some risk that you might make a transaction that can't be covered by the money in your account.

Purple cards are the full fat ones with contactless, blue ones are online only

This is the same distinction that is why some cards work on trains and in self service petrol stations and some won't.

Whilst I can understand why for some people having the card on the phone might be one less thing to carry, I'd rather that they were separate from a security point of view. I know people say that iOS' and Android's methods are secure with fingerprint protection and the like but there's something that feels more secure about a physical, separate card, namely that if I don't need it I can leave it at home.

Does anyone know what speeds are going to be offered or if people on Vodafone will get a discount? I can still get a 20% discount from their VEA so might switch full time if they're offering something good.

I did notice on their careers website the other day that they were hiring for someone with UK TV market experience so I presume that that's their next stop.

Some good thoughts there about the loyalty cards, but it only makes me think why the banks haven't issued more contractless cards and let people link or apply loyalty cards to their bank card. If Halifax can do cashback offers like when I shopped in Morrisons yesterday I got £5 of my £42 shop.

I certainly can't see the benefits of mobile payment for me personally when I already have a very thin contactless card. You could slide it into the back of your phone case of you were that fussed!

I have a orange and blue one
It works on trains and offline things though.
I could be wrong but I'm not sure U18s can get a contactless bankcard.

I get what you mean, but magnetic swipe was exploited, chip and pin has been exploited, I think with all the protocols, checks and insurance you get now with contactless I'd argue that was currently the safer option.

Sorry I didn't ask them as the store was closing and it was just something I overheard and had a quick chat about. I doubt they are allowed to go into detail until Wednesday though anyway.

It sounds like it will just be the standard ADSL, and fibre 40/80mbps options, they did mention it will be fast and competitive.
They haven't been told anything about TV yet, so that may be pushed back into next year.