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Vodafone and O2 4G experience thread
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Pedro_C
22-01-2016
If you're in a public place, you can supposedly take a picture of pretty much anything. The monopoles like that one generally have three Kathrein dual or triple input panels with RETs and sometimes Commscope/Andrews in them.
andyukguy
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by Stereo Steve:
“That's embarrassing. No wonder they don't let you zoom out.”

You can see all their coverage layers (at any level of zoom) via:

https://mapserver.vodafone.co.uk/arcgis/rest/services
beans0ntoast
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by Stereo Steve:
“South Hams. Nothing. See here:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/life/p...cle4379007.ece

You can't see the whole article unless you subscribe but number one is Totnes, Devon.

Another study says Totnes in only the fourth coolest place to live in the UK. Only he fourth.

http://www.hebdenbridge.co.uk/news/2013/057.html

Yet, Vodfone has NO data coverage here. They have supposed EDGE but it doesn't work and never has. You would have to drive a good distance to download anything on VOD. Is this some kind of sick joke
?

Comedy.”

I remember Devon Bloke making a post on here about how awful Vodafone is (in terms of Data) in the Devon area - only having EDGE in Totnes. Even when working well, EDGE is barely usable as a data connection because 220kbps won't get much done at all. At least O2 has got 3G there though.

The only thing I could suggest, which Devon had already suggested, is to drive all the way to Torbay just to get some 3G?

There are an awful lot of Vod/O2 2G only masts that need upgrading to 4G, with both 3G900 and 3G2100 being required, in order to make a decent data network down there.

Hopefully Vodafone will be able to improve their network one day, because at the moment, for most rural areas EE is the only data option. Including near where I live (no 3G coverage whatsoever between Stanwick and Peterborough on Vod).
moox
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by beans0ntoast:
“I remember Devon Bloke making a post on here about how awful Vodafone is (in terms of Data) in the Devon area - only having EDGE in Totnes. Even when working well, EDGE is barely usable as a data connection because 220kbps won't get much done at all. At least O2 has got 3G there though.

The only thing I could suggest, which Devon had already suggested, is to drive all the way to Torbay just to get some 3G?

There are an awful lot of Vod/O2 2G only masts that need upgrading to 4G, with both 3G900 and 3G2100 being required, in order to make a decent data network down there.

Hopefully Vodafone will be able to improve their network one day, because at the moment, for most rural areas EE is the only data option. Including near where I live (no 3G coverage whatsoever between Stanwick and Peterborough on Vod).”

It doesn't necessarily matter that Vodafone has 3G in an area. As I've said before, I live in an area that has 3G 900, but the performance is only marginally better than EDGE (which isn't available here). The signal belts in through my granite walls but it's no good.

It's not a Cornerstone thing because the O2 2100 site, when you can get a signal from it, delivers fairly good performance - 10+Mbps.

Naturally MBNL once again lead - EE/3 HSPA is as flawless as ever, in coverage and performance. Haven't tried EE 4G around here and Three 4G is only available on 800MHz according to that work of fiction they call a coverage map.
d123
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by DevonBloke:
“Get there on the 14th and take a pic of the antenna and the engineers doing the job.
Pretty certain that isn't against the law, as long as you don't show their faces....... probably!
”

No expectation of privacy in a public place in the UK so you can snap their photos to your hearts content .
Aye Up
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by DevonBloke:
“Sorry, what???
That's just the current 4G map.
Vodafone don't do VoLTE yet.
Would be a bit pointless here anyway..... they don't do 4G!”

VoLTE is supposed to be arriving 1H of 2016......however like EE they want to make sure it works first. I suspect when EE does launch Vodafone won't be far behind.
Pedro_C
22-01-2016
Vodafone is clearly keen to keep hold of customers...Nearly 20 minutes on hold and they could only offer 30% off as the absolute maximum which barely gets the cost below their winter discount cost.
Can I get a PAC code to migrate my number from Vodafone to Vodafone bought through mobilephones direct?
hammy_y
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by Pedro_C:
“The monopoles like that one generally have three Kathrein dual or triple input panels with RETs and sometimes Commscope/Andrews in them.”

Yeah I think there were 3 antennas. Also it looks bigger in real life than on google maps IMO. If you look near the ground you can see it in comparison to the cabinet and a road sign.

Originally Posted by DevonBloke:
“Get there on the 14th and take a pic of the antenna and the engineers doing the job.”

Yeah I know it's not against the law cause it's a public place, it's just it might look a bit weird lol, but I'll try and do it . My phone camera is only 12MP, hope that's good enough to see everything lol

Originally Posted by M1kos:
“Here's a pic with the shroud missing off the same type of mast it's a Jupiter 811 and cab have its Antennas upgraded to 4G https://www.dropbox.com/s/zymcirl20r...A0000.jpg?dl=0”

Yeah the top of it looked like that I think

Sorry for my quote spamming lol

Thanks everyone!
philt74
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by Pedro_C:
“Vodafone is clearly keen to keep hold of customers...Nearly 20 minutes on hold and they could only offer 30% off as the absolute maximum which barely gets the cost below their winter discount cost.
Can I get a PAC code to migrate my number from Vodafone to Vodafone bought through mobilephones direct?”

Just get a PAYG Sim card from another network and transfer it on to that for a couple of days.
Pedro_C
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by philt74:
“Just get a PAYG Sim card from another network and transfer it on to that for a couple of days.”

I think I'll transfer it onto my 3 PAYG SIM. Is mobilephonesdirect really as simple as clicking on something in the "my account" page to claim cashback?
philt74
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by Pedro_C:
“I think I'll transfer it onto my 3 PAYG SIM. Is mobilephonesdirect really as simple as clicking on something in the "my account" page to claim cashback?”

I hope so! You have to upload your bills but it looks pretty easy.

I signed up for an EE contract with them about 3 weeks ago. Just in time by the looks of it because they've stopped the huge cashback offers on EE, only Vodafone now.
beans0ntoast
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by moox:
“It doesn't necessarily matter that Vodafone has 3G in an area. As I've said before, I live in an area that has 3G 900, but the performance is only marginally better than EDGE (which isn't available here). The signal belts in through my granite walls but it's no good.

It's not a Cornerstone thing because the O2 2100 site, when you can get a signal from it, delivers fairly good performance - 10+Mbps.

Naturally MBNL once again lead - EE/3 HSPA is as flawless as ever, in coverage and performance. Haven't tried EE 4G around here and Three 4G is only available on 800MHz according to that work of fiction they call a coverage map.”

This is why both 3G900 and 3G2100 need to be active on every mast if Vodafone (and to an extent, O2) are to have a decent network for data.

Chances are, the VF mast has no 3G2100 - meaning that 3G900 will be taking all of the data for a large area. It will probably get very swamped very easily.

If 2100 was available at the same mast, then 2100 would take most of the data close to the mast (for capacity), leaving the indoor areas and the long distance areas (that 2100 can't cover) for 3G900. That way, the 900 won't get swamped as quickly.

Alternatively, and this is what I would do if I was running the network, they could refarm the whole of the 900MHz band for 3G, giving additional capacity for 3G users on the 900MHz band, and reducing the likelihood of 3G being swamped. Obviously, there would be no 2G900, but if 3G900 and 3G2100 is on every mast, there is no need for 2G surely? 3G does high quality calls, texts and reasonably fast data, with 4G doing superfast data and VoLTE (when launched). Oh, and whilst I'm at it, I'd get the whole of the 1800MHz spectrum refarmed for 4G, to help with capacity on masts that 2600MHz isn't installed on.

For O2, the same principle would apply: 3G900 and 3G2100 on every mast, with the whole of the 900MHz band refarmed to 3G and the whole of O2's 1800MHz band refarmed to 4G. In fact, O2 needs the 1800MHz more than Vodafone, because Vodafone have some 2600MHz and O2 do not.
moox
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by beans0ntoast:
“This is why both 3G900 and 3G2100 need to be active on every mast if Vodafone (and to an extent, O2) are to have a decent network for data.

Chances are, the VF mast has no 3G2100 - meaning that 3G900 will be taking all of the data for a large area. It will probably get very swamped very easily.

If 2100 was available at the same mast, then 2100 would take most of the data close to the mast (for capacity), leaving the indoor areas and the long distance areas (that 2100 can't cover) for 3G900. That way, the 900 won't get swamped as quickly..”

This is a mast in a fairly rural location - it covers a village and a section of a major road. I can't imagine congestion is the problem, especially when time of day is not a factor and the performance is always universally poor.

That's probably why it doesn't have 2100MHz. I've read that Vodafone scrambled to do a lot of masts when Ofcom threatened to take action over not meeting the 3G coverage obligations in their licence. It wouldn't surprise me if they've just installed some 3G equipment very quickly, but not upgraded the backhaul. (I'm going to assume that 3G900 doesn't require them to fit new antennas - they can just plug and play, in a sense).

I'll bet that if Vodafone ever puts 4G in then it will finally get the backhaul it deserves.

Originally Posted by beans0ntoast:
“Alternatively, and this is what I would do if I was running the network, they could refarm the whole of the 900MHz band for 3G, giving additional capacity for 3G users on the 900MHz band, and reducing the likelihood of 3G being swamped. Obviously, there would be no 2G900, but if 3G900 and 3G2100 is on every mast, there is no need for 2G surely? 3G does high quality calls, texts and reasonably fast data, with 4G doing superfast data and VoLTE (when launched). Oh, and whilst I'm at it, I'd get the whole of the 1800MHz spectrum refarmed for 4G, to help with capacity on masts that 2600MHz isn't installed on.

For O2, the same principle would apply: 3G900 and 3G2100 on every mast, with the whole of the 900MHz band refarmed to 3G and the whole of O2's 1800MHz band refarmed to 4G. In fact, O2 needs the 1800MHz more than Vodafone, because Vodafone have some 2600MHz and O2 do not.”

My understanding is that 3G is fairly inefficient, in the sense that you have to dedicate 5MHz channels to 3G usage, and there's the slight coverage unpredictability that cell breathing gives you. 2G is much more granular. (and if you have 2G for rock solid voice/text + 4G for fast data and VoLTE, what does 3G add?). There are also a lot of 2G devices out there, not just phones but for M2M applications, alarms, etc. Ideally anything fitted in the last few years would do 3G too, but apparently not. Those £10 cheap phones generally don't do anything except 2G.

But opinion is divided there. Some network operators are planning to switch off 3G first, others are switching off 2G and keeping 3G/LTE. It will be interesting to see what 3's plans are, since they don't have a 2G network - at least not unless they are allowed to absorb O2
Pedro_C
22-01-2016
3G900 can be perfectly adequate for large areas. There's a large 30-40m mast near me that carries Voda/O2 900/900/800 and the 3G speeds are perfectly good despite the fact it covers part of a reasonable sized town and a large amount of almost rural housing. OK, a lot of devices will be on 4G800, but the 900 3G extends quite a bit further and speeds are still pretty good: the sector that covers the rural housing often achieves 12mbps, the town part 3-4mbps.
Aye Up
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by beans0ntoast:
“Chances are, the VF mast has no 3G2100 - meaning that 3G900 will be taking all of the data for a large area. It will probably get very swamped very easily.”

Each mast that has been upgraded via cornerstone has seen similar attention afforded to 2G/3G/4G. Where I live both 2100/900 3G is active on the majority of masts. O2 aside, Vodafone know they need to be spending money bringing their network up to scratch. Seeing as EE won the emergency services contract its left Vodafone feeling exposed, ironically it should have the best coverage by virtue of 900 spectrum.

Vodafone will have a strong network by 2017/18, now at the moment its getting better but not quite there yet.
blueacid
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by beans0ntoast:
“Alternatively, and this is what I would do if I was running the network, they could refarm the whole of the 900MHz band for 3G, giving additional capacity for 3G users on the 900MHz band, and reducing the likelihood of 3G being swamped. Obviously, there would be no 2G900, but if 3G900 and 3G2100 is on every mast, there is no need for 2G surely? 3G does high quality calls, texts and reasonably fast data, with 4G doing superfast data and VoLTE (when launched). Oh, and whilst I'm at it, I'd get the whole of the 1800MHz spectrum refarmed for 4G, to help with capacity on masts that 2600MHz isn't installed on.

For O2, the same principle would apply: 3G900 and 3G2100 on every mast, with the whole of the 900MHz band refarmed to 3G and the whole of O2's 1800MHz band refarmed to 4G. In fact, O2 needs the 1800MHz more than Vodafone, because Vodafone have some 2600MHz and O2 do not.”

Except they definitely do want some 2g for the moment; there are lots of M2M contracts out there which Vodafone have; things like smart meters, alarms, remote sensors, (I'm not entirely sure for this next one.. but..) some BMW's ConnectedDrive systems, GPRS credit card terminals etc - I had new tyres fitted to my car the other day on my drive, the fitter had with him a GPRS terminal on EE. The terminal had contactless, but only 2g!

Many of these devices use 2G only radios as they are cheaper (fewer patents still in effect requiring royalties per device) and use less power than 3g... so it's not entirely yet possible today. In the future though, maybe..
moox
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by Aye Up:
“Vodafone will have a strong network by 2017/18, now at the moment its getting better but not quite there yet.”

The 4G coverage map doesn't look bad nationally. Except for the south west (minus Bristol and North Somerset), and east Anglia - which seem to be no-go zones for VO2.

I'm assuming there's going to be a rapid switch on imminently.
Aye Up
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by moox:
“The 4G coverage map doesn't look bad nationally. Except for the south west (minus Bristol and North Somerset), and east Anglia - which seem to be no-go zones for VO2.

I'm assuming there's going to be a rapid switch on imminently.”

I think thats an accurate assessment TBH. Vodafone is really quickening the pace to upgrade as many masts in as many areas as possible. I think its a known issue in areas where O2 is responsible for the upgrades, they have been dragging their feet. This is causing a mayriad of of issues as Vodafone wants to at least equal EE possibly by 2018. O2 don't seem to want to spend any money given the possible pending merger or eventual disposal by Telefonica.

I am stupid enough to have multitude sims for the big 4, EE is way out in front, coverage is superb as is the quality of the network. Vodafone is a distant second, although I doubt that is by choice (blame O2)......the other 2 are way behind, neither have any concrete plans (that I know of) in which to rollout wifi calling or (a working) version of VoLTE.

You would think all of the networks would have the nous to rollout wifi calling to as many customers as possible. I would argue it would significantly reduce congestion on the physical network. Vodafone has rolled it out, it isn't as ubiquitus as EE, you can't use it where full mobile signal is recieved. I have a sure signal at both my homes, I don't have the coverage issue.

You would think the whole industry could get together to work and hammer out a standard they can all support.

Unless I'm mistaken there are several forms of VoLTE which complicates the matter even further. I do believe VoLTE for T-Mobile US and Verizon are completely different and thus incompatible if the firmware on thew handset is different.

VoLTE is some way off I think, currently there isn't a consumer demand for it, thats not to say it shouldn't be pursued, EE and Vodafone have around 12-18 months to lanch the service and get it right. I do think when EE launches it, it will just work, no fannying around. Vodafone will be similar, though no doubt it will have some stupid rules governing how it can be used.
beans0ntoast
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by moox:
“This is a mast in a fairly rural location - it covers a village and a section of a major road. I can't imagine congestion is the problem, especially when time of day is not a factor and the performance is always universally poor.

That's probably why it doesn't have 2100MHz. I've read that Vodafone scrambled to do a lot of masts when Ofcom threatened to take action over not meeting the 3G coverage obligations in their licence. It wouldn't surprise me if they've just installed some 3G equipment very quickly, but not upgraded the backhaul. (I'm going to assume that 3G900 doesn't require them to fit new antennas - they can just plug and play, in a sense).

I'll bet that if Vodafone ever puts 4G in then it will finally get the backhaul it deserves.”

In which case, if it's a rural location, then it probably won't be congestion that is the limiting factor, although 3G900 can travel quite long distances compared to 3G2100.

If performance of such a rural mast is consistently poor, chances are it's bad backhaul that is to blame. Either its in a daisy chain of micro masts, which adversely affects performance along the chain, or it's got copper backhaul. Copper backhaul is the worst because it is only rated at 2Mbps maximum - which is likely to give 0.2Mbps to the end user (similar to EDGE speeds). I do remember the issue about Vodafone not reaching 90% UK coverage, so chances are they put 3G on the masts on 900MHz without upgrading the backhaul. They'll have reused the old antennas, since 2G is also on 900MHz.

Hopefully CTIL will come along and upgrade all of the masts that are required, to get the 98% indoor coverage that O2 requires - and when CTIL upgrade a site, they'll put both O2 and Voda on it.

(Note: "coverage" is defined here as anything that can provide a reliable service for calls, texts and data, so 3G and 4G.)

Quote:
“My understanding is that 3G is fairly inefficient, in the sense that you have to dedicate 5MHz channels to 3G usage, and there's the slight coverage unpredictability that cell breathing gives you. 2G is much more granular. (and if you have 2G for rock solid voice/text + 4G for fast data and VoLTE, what does 3G add?). There are also a lot of 2G devices out there, not just phones but for M2M applications, alarms, etc. Ideally anything fitted in the last few years would do 3G too, but apparently not. Those £10 cheap phones generally don't do anything except 2G.

But opinion is divided there. Some network operators are planning to switch off 3G first, others are switching off 2G and keeping 3G/LTE. It will be interesting to see what 3's plans are, since they don't have a 2G network - at least not unless they are allowed to absorb O2”

Personally if I was running a network, I'd do a Three UK and get rid of 2G at the earliest opportunity, or even better, not have it to begin with. I've seen reports on here of 2G using pretty poor quality for voice calls, whereas 3G has the possibility to do HD Voice (even if they don't use HD voice, it'll sound a lot better than 2G). I remember a time when I was at Leicester train station and made a phone call (this is on Virgin/EE). Usually, my phone is set to 3G only (Virgin do not offer 4G, and 2G is pointless) and all calls sound very good. However, one occasion, I made a phone call and it sounded absolutely diabolical. Reason? I had been testing an EE sim that day, and the settings had been reverted to default, to take advantage of 4G. As a result, the phone had dropped back to EDGE for a call, despite 3G being very present and very strong at that location.

I do realize that cell breathing can be an issue; however avoiding congestion (the main cause of cell breathing) would be a solution. More masts and 900/2100 would resolve that, with more capacity when required. (For example, all of EE's 1800 to 4G, so that there would be a ton of 4G available, for capacity - and 3G for calls and older phones.) You said that if you have 2G and 4G, why have 3G - however, if you have 3G for calls (at much better quality than 2G!), texts and data (my local 3G mast can provide 15-20Mbps nicely) and 4G for superfast data (EE 4G can provide up to 100Mbps on 1800MHz), then what is the need for 2G?

The only thing that 2G is useful for is, in my opinion, interfering with trying to stream media - because that's what it does if I turn it on on my S4. EDGE is barely usable. GPRS is a joke. Smart meters for gas/electricity (they use 2G, I believe) haven't really got on to everyone yet, and it'll be a while before smart meters become the norm. And I've heard complaints about smart meters not working, because of being hidden away (like normal meters) in a place that has no mobile signal. And anyway, it's not like 3G phones are expensive (like 4G phones) - you can get a cheap 3G phone from Argos for £30. Whereas, if 3G got turned off, then many people that didn't have a 4G phone would then be without a data connection, and requiring a new 4G phone.
jchamier
22-01-2016
Vodafone carrier update just arrived on my iPhone 6. Version 23.1 so now the same as my EE phone.

No change to the Mobile Data -> 4G option, still has 2G, 3G, 4G - so I guess its not VoLTE - anyone know the changes?
lightspeed2398
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by jchamier:
“Vodafone carrier update just arrived on my iPhone 6. Version 23.1 so now the same as my EE phone.

No change to the Mobile Data -> 4G option, still has 2G, 3G, 4G - so I guess its not VoLTE - anyone know the changes?”

Got VoLTE settings in it in the Override for VoLTE capable devices.

Edit: Also got under Wifi Calling - Preferred Technology "cellular" which I presume is why it won't activate until you have no signal.
Aye Up
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by beans0ntoast:
“The only thing that 2G is useful for is, in my opinion, interfering with trying to stream media - because that's what it does if I turn it on on my S4. EDGE is barely usable. GPRS is a joke. Smart meters for gas/electricity (they use 2G, I believe) haven't really got on to everyone yet, and it'll be a while before smart meters become the norm. And I've heard complaints about smart meters not working, because of being hidden away (like normal meters) in a place that has no mobile signal. And anyway, it's not like 3G phones are expensive (like 4G phones) - you can get a cheap 3G phone from Argos for £30. Whereas, if 3G got turned off, then many people that didn't have a 4G phone would then be without a data connection, and requiring a new 4G phone.”

The thing is Smart Meters haven't been rolled out as wide as they should have been. I believe there are less than 500k in the wild. I have one for electricity in the property I live in now, none of the big suppliers will use it, previously I suggested I had one installed and they wanted it removed. Rather than fanny around I didn't declare it was a smart meter, made no difference.

My point being really, there has been so few (comparatively) smart meters rolled out, the cost of changing them would be minor against rolling out nationwide. Everyone was supposed to be hooked up to them for both gas and electric by this point upto 2020...now we are looking at 2025 the earliest.
beecart
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by andyukguy:
“You can see all their coverage layers (at any level of zoom) via:

https://mapserver.vodafone.co.uk/arcgis/rest/services”

Wow, that's good. Do you have a link like that for o2 please?
lightspeed2398
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by beecart:
“Wow, that's good. Do you have a link like that for o2 please?”

As far as I can tell there isn't one. I had a look when I found the Map Server link back in early September and o2's map seems to serve the coverage layers up as individual picture tiles rather than as a rendering on an map like that. There might be a way to change the actual map controller to allow zoom but I haven't played around with it that much.
LegendaryAced
22-01-2016
Originally Posted by jchamier:
“Vodafone carrier update just arrived on my iPhone 6. Version 23.1 so now the same as my EE phone.

No change to the Mobile Data -> 4G option, still has 2G, 3G, 4G - so I guess its not VoLTE - anyone know the changes?”

Originally Posted by lightspeed2398:
“Got VoLTE settings in it in the Override for VoLTE capable devices.

Edit: Also got under Wifi Calling - Preferred Technology "cellular" which I presume is why it won't activate until you have no signal.”

I updated to the latest carrier update with iPhone 6S Plus and now I can't connect to WiFi Calling as easily as before! It sits on Cellular more than before. THIS IS HORRIBLE!
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