Apologies if this has been brought up and confirmed before, but something struck me when adding up some of the dangling plot threads in my head the other day...

Moffat has been very clear, in interviews and also in the Christmas special, that Doctor 10.5 is a full blown regeneration, one of the 13 Doctors.
Also, in the 50th, Capaldi's surprise appearance with all the other Doctors in their Tardis, comes with the line: "No sir, all THIRTEEN!"

So, does this mean that the deleted scene that RTD wished was canon, where the 10th Doctor is seen giving 10.5 a piece of Tardis to grow his own, is now Canon and he has not only been able to grow a new one but also escape through the cracks to come through and help his other 12 selves save Gallifrey?

If this is true will he duly and rightfully return to his own "Pete's world" universe to save it from it's evils or will he feel the need to be in the same universe as his origins?

Any thoughts?

Don't think so at all. I mean...

Original 11 Doctors + Hurt Doctor + Capaldi Doctor = All 13!

Nope. Moffat said Ten used up his regeneration energy to preserve himself. Nowhere has he said or has it been suggested on screen that Clone Ten is an actual Doctor. Because he isn't.

It was clear that The War Doctor ie Hurt was the other Doctor to make up all 13.

I fully expect Clone Doctor to be long forgotten about as one of RTDs worst ever moves and never mentioned or seen again. Thank goodness.

And even if he was able to grow a TARDIS, by the time he did, he would have been a old man ready to die as he was human with only one heart.

He served his purpose, which was to give Rose a life with The Doctor that The Doctor could not provide due to his emotional disparity that his human half did not share.

As soon as he whispered what he did into her ear, Rose knew that this was a Doctor that could actually love her back and he became the man she needed, whereas our Doctor could never take that step due to his Gallifreyan-ness

That's the beauty of the gift the Doctor gave Rose. He gave her what she needed even if he himself could not benefit from it.
It's a shame some people can't see the touching nature of it.

But the thread's not really about that.

Imagine if he did get his Tardis working, he and Rose got frisky in the Tardis one day then BOOM, suddenly you have quarter time-lord babies with perhaps way more powers then the "fully human but still able to regenerate" River could ever hope to achieve.

A nice little Time Lord legacy in that universe, perhaps?

Erm you've just changed what the thread is about. You don't seem to have been paying attention to the episodes.

You claimed that 10.5 had appeared in the 50th and that Moffat had confirmed that he was an official regeneration. Both completely wrong.

In "The Time of the Doctor", the 11th Doctor says the following:

"I can change 12 times. 13 versions of me. 13 silly Doctors."

And so the 11th Doctor is saying that, including himself, there have now been 13 "silly Doctors". The Meta-Crisis Doctor has therefore been established by Moffat as being a full Doctor, as much of a Doctor as the others.

No he hasn't.

So Rose needed a part-human, part Time Lord man who looked like the Doctor and had some of Donna's personality? Somehow I don't see Rose finding the Meta-Crisis an acceptable substitute for the Doctor.



I actually thought the whole thing about how River was conceived to be a little goofy. Given the sheer number of people who have traveled with the Doctor, it seems hard to believe that traveling companions haven't gotten "frisky" before in the TARDIS.

Then how do you explain what the 11th Doctor said?

To be pedantic, the Meta-Crisis is just a clone of the Tenth Doctor, and shares characteristics with that incarnation (as well as the Ninth and Donna Noble), so naturally the real Doctor would consider him as a "silly Doctor" because he is everything Ten is/was. But realistically, he isn't a full Doctor. He's half human (on his mother's side technically as well!). He's part Donna. Not 100% Doctor. He's just the embodiment of a regeneration.

He says 'I can'. Not 'I have'.

Potentially he can change 12 times. Ten wasted one of those regenerations because he was vain and self obsessed.

10.5 is not a Doctor. Not at all. The Fiftieth even gave everyone a helpful visual checklist. All Twelve stood together.

Actually the 11th Doctor also says:

"12 regenerations, Clara. I can't ever do it again. This is where I end up."




True. However, it does contradict what the 11th Doctor said. The only way to have 13 "silly Doctors" is if the following were considered Doctors:

1st Doctor
2nd Doctor
3rd Doctor
4th Doctor
5th Doctor
6th Doctor
7th Doctor
8th Doctor
Hurt Doctor
9th Doctor
10th Doctor
Meta-Crisis Doctor
11th Doctor

12 regenerations. 13 versions of the Doctor. 13 silly Doctors.

For myself, I never actually thought the Meta-Crisis Doctor was a Doctor and the whole thing was obviously to give Rose some version of the Doctor in order to give her a happy ending.

However, as Moffat wanted to be the one to address the regeneration limit, he "discovered" a missing regeneration and also decided that the Meta-Crisis Doctor was a regeneration and a Doctor and therefore the 12 regeneration limit resulting in 13 Doctors was reached.

It's true that to what extent he's a "full Doctor" isn't addressed in "The Time of the Doctor". (And I personally never considered him to be the Doctor in any case). But he was definitely added in with the other Doctors because there was no other way to reach the 13 Doctors that the 11th Doctor mentioned.


Bite your tongue. While I did like the TV movie, that whole thing with the Doctor being part human was awful. For one thing, the 4th Doctor on two separate occasions said "I'm not human" and even the 7th Doctor said he wasn't human right in the movie itself.
It's too bad the producer/writer was hitting the bottle the day that scene was written/directed.

Maybe not, if it takes 2000 years to grow one normally then yes but...

If you
* Shatterfy the plasmic shell
* Modify the dimensional stabiliser to a foldback harmonic of 35.3

if this is done correctly then you'll accelerate growth by the power of 59

so it could take as little as 33.9 years

I think you're getting incarnations mixed-up with regenerations. Ten used up regeneration energy, but he stayed in the same incarnation. The clone was neither shown nor mentioned during the Day of the Doctor, as the OP claims he was.

The 13 Doctors acknowledged by the War Council during the Cupasoupification of Gallifrey were:
1. Hartnell
2. Troughton
3. Pertwee
4. T. Baker
5. Davison
6. C. Baker
7. McCoy
8. McGann
9. Hurt
10. Eccleston
11. Tennant
12. Smith
13. Capaldi

So, to make things as clear as mud, the Doctor has used up 13 regenerations, but Capadi is still only the 13th incarnation. And he'll be referred to as the 12th Doctor on official merchandise.

1. Hartnell
2. Troughton
3. Pertwee
4. T. Baker
5. Davison
6. C. Baker
7. McCoy
8. McGann
9. Hurt
10. Eccleston
11. Tennant
12. Tennant (Not meta-crisis, kept the same face!)
13. Smith
14. Capaldi

Not forgetting the same I had last night.

15. Hugh Bonneville

Well, he is. He' s a Doctor, he's got a face, all that, and he's one of thirteen men produced by a regeneration. That doesn't mean the fiftieth proved he got his TARDIS working - he definitely wasn't among the Doctors who saved Gallifrey, and that's what the original question was.

Also, "Moffat wanted to be the one" is a bit loaded! Equally plausible - Moffat wanted to finally clear it up, Moffat had an idea he liked and the opportunity to action it, it made thematic sense after Day of the Doctor to give saving Gallifrey prominence and big story consequences...

While I agree that the meta-crisis Doctor is not in the line-up of proper Doctors, we had been warned that a dark Doctor would be created...

"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor – even you. The Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say you do not improve with age."

And let's not forget that the meta-crisis Doctor had no qualms about committing genocide.

Tennant Mark 2 (not meta-crisis) became The Time Lord Victorious. Albeit, for a short period of time.

I wouldn't be totally opposed to Handy coming back as a version of the Valeyard.


It could well be one of the ramifications of the Doctor finding Gallifrey.


Once the Time Lords are back in power people will be able to "hop between realities, home in time for tea".


While the Doctor may not go looking for Rose/Handy I could see a story a few years down the line where Handy comes back on his own.


Due to a mistake he has made Pete's World has been almost totally destroyed, Rose is dead and Handy has come seeking the TARDIS* (and any regenerations he can steal from the Doctor) so he can go back in time and put things right.



This gives us a 21st century version of the Valeyard and allows DT to return to the show but not as the Doctor.



*He never managed to grow one.

Lets put both of those together and say that the Valeyard got split up due to the Meta-crisis!
Part of the Valeyard went to the real Doctor as 'The Time Lord Victorious' and the other part went to the Meta-crisis Doctor clone and 'made him committing genocide'. AS
As the Valeyard got split things have been rewritten and the Valeyard no longer exists!


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Side note about Meta-crisis clone ageing, I think that even though he was a full size person, he was born (so to speak) like that, so I think he wont start ageing till say 40 or 50 years later than when we last see him, meaning Rose is likely to start ageing say about 20 years before him!

It wasn't RTD that thought up the extra Doctor between McGann and Eccleston. It was Steven Moffat, the current showrunner. Don't forget that! RTD has been gone from the show, nearly four years now.

The Clone Doctor, not the War Doctor

I think he was saying that the Meta-crisis clone was

Quote:
“'one of RTD's worst moves'”

Personally I think it was a good move that brought the issue of 13 regen limit closer and it was a good plot point at the time!
Then Moffat's added 'War Doctor' did the same, in being a good plot point and helping the regens on to enable the 13 regen limit to be sorted, at least for the next 20-40 years!