had there been some way to do it, do people think it would have been better to film silence in the library/forest of the dead and not use it until recently (say late series 7 maybe). Imagine how cool it would have been, the doctor vaguely mention's having met her before (but maybe in a slightly detailed way than he actually did) in the time of angels, then everyone's left wondering about his mysterious first meeting with her and her eventual fate, then bam, they show the episode where he first met her and it's him as david tennant with donna noble. Would have been a great chance to see the tenth doctor again, the fact that it has donna in it would show whereabout's in ten's timeline it occured and people could appreciate the emotion of river's death knowing the importance of the character.

obviously this would have required them to film an episode during ten's time as doctor and then not use it until the time was right and, to some it would seem strange for an episode with ten to occur in a series of elevens tenure, but I for one think it would have been so cool. they could even have edited it to show scene's of her and eleven at derillium as she talked about it, (and maybe a quick montage of some their ep's as if she's thinking about them as the life goes out of her) just so there were some eleven scenes in it.

Just inspired to think about this as for me, the episode has more resonance now we know about the character, and have seen for ourselves that what she say's is true, whereas at the time she was just some wierd future lady. Also alot of people who aren't die hard fan's wont remember the episode now, and if her death would have occured at the end of her run it would have been remembered more. definitely think it would have been a better send off than what we got in name of the doctor(if that is her last ep as most assume, although I hope not).

anyway, know the whole concept of my idea would have been unlikely to be done, with production issues etc, but if it could have been, do people think it would have been a good idea?

No, I think it works better the way it happened. We sort of get it both ways - we saw it from the Doctor's perspective at the time, where we were as baffled as him, but it gains further layers as we see more of River's story - and all of a sudden David Tennant does look young, and it's so weird that he hasn't heard of the crash of the Byzantium, and we get to see it through both characters' eyes - which we wouldn't ever have had the opportunity to, if it were held off. I think it would lose so much impact placed elsewhere.

I think that's right. It wouldn't have worked if we hadn't seen RS in the Library until last year. The way it was done, was perfect. River Song's last day, in the Libray, then she dies. Then the Doctor sees her, a few more times going back through her adult life, until she is about to kill him in The Wedding of River Song. Now that's been said, we needn't go on.

This thread needn't continue.

But wasn't the order of things the whole point to their relationship. His first, her last!

No, it was done that way for a reason and any other way would have been too convoluted and seen as being slightly shoe horned in imo.

I liked, and have no problem with how it was done, just think it would have been made a bigger deal of now. I know people who are more casual viewers but have been watching since before series 4 and now don't even remember river died in the library, as I think it's only us die hard fan's who retain information like that for year's. Based on that I was just saying for all those people who are like that, or people who never rewatch an episode, it would have been a much bigger deal now than it ever was then. I personally was intrigued by the river concept at the time, but it only has more meaning now as we see more or river, so imagine the impact it would have now being new, and would be a refreshing twist on the norm to see a story from rivers point of view

so you get to decide now that a thread should stop, just because you don't like the conversation?. If you don't like the thread no one's forcing you to look, but you don't have the right to say it should be stopped

I think it would've been nice touch to have made a minisode, or a longer standalone thing, using footage from the library episodes recut to be from River's viewpoint now that we know the context. Perhaps incorporating 11 somehow. But it isn't necessary. Knowing her end and is what gave the character meaning and maintained interest. Sort of a Titanic effect, you know what's coming so thing have added poignancy.

Gotta agree, thats really rude to tell people when a conversation should and should not continue.

Think it would awaesome if this tread went on to get 100 posts!

I like the OP opinion and view and think it would have been a real treat for fans to have an ep featuring 10 and Donna woven into a story with 11 and River.

I can see what you mean. The only thing is that at the time it was written and filmed I very much doubt that anyone had a serious forward plan for her character! Personally I would rather that she had been left there as a kind of forever enigma. Mysterious characters are always better in the imagination than in fact and I personally ended up completely bored with her (respect to those that didn't).

cheers for the support about the thread and agreeing woth my point of view, nice to hear from like minded people. Like I say I have no problem with the way it was done, i just think it would have been such an 'event' episode with rating's going through the roof, if it could have been done the way I have suggested.

This thread should be allowed to either flourish or end naturally. People taking it upon themselves to dictate what the majority can and can't discuss should be nipped in the bud long before threads about well worn subjects should be 'forbidden' by said posters. It is a little rude.

That said, though I love River, imo the execution of her story and development left quite a bit to be desired. Though I think her story could have been better told, I don't think showing the Library episodes at a different time would help. The mysterious woman who loved him enough to die for him, while he didn't know anything about her was extremely effective, not least because we were as in the dark as him.

The whole 'saving people on to the hard drive' was a little dodgy and should have been skirted over. Being shown Donna's compassion for the thousandth time wasn't so important that it was worth shedding a bright light on a part of the story that would have been better kept in the shadows - no pun intended . Also, Donna getting all jealous (and b*tchy) over a man she didn't even fancy was (again imo) tiresome, especially as she had no problem with Martha or Rose. Surely she should have been less threatened by someone the Doctor obviously had no relationship with at the time?

If it had been part of the Specials year, it could have been the Doctor, River and the red-shirts getting picked off one by one over the course of an hour. No need for Donna and 'family'. The story would have been tighter and the Doctor would have had even more reason to be a git, however the first time he (and we) met her would still have been the day she died.

I'd also happily bet a fiver that Moffat had no idea that River would be anything but a one off character at the time! So why would he hold back on such a good alien as the Vashta Nerada? Interesting idea, but story before ratings I think. Though I had issues with River's story, I liked experiencing it with the protagonist.

There is one thing that gets me. What happened between TATM and the Singing Towers ?. You would have thought he would have at least attempted to stop her going to the library.Tragedy just compounded tragedy. Lose your best freinds then their daughter your "wife".NOTD he even said what happened to her was his fault. 10 thought he was "saving" her but he was wrong. All he did was cause her and 11 more pain. River didn't chose or ask for her afterlife in the computor.Hope after 11 "released" her soul by saying what she needed to hear she could move on finding both peace and her parents in actual heaven.

I think he knew that because he'd seen it, he couldn't change it, although this whole question could be a good basis for an episode, say river is with him at the start, and tell's him she's going to the library with a team directly after she leaves him, so he keep's her with him, making excuses, and telling her he can drop her off at the right time for her mission whenever he feel's like with the tardis. Then as he's stalling her he's secretly wrestling with what to do, and maybe he even does change it at one point but then it's ruined his personal future or caused death's that werent supposed to happen. Then the end of the episode would be him resigning himself to the fact that it has to happen, and that he has to let her go to the library, but before he let's her go, he say's, 'one more quick trip before you go, been meaning to show you this for ages' trying to act all casual, and then he takes her to derillium. Episode could end with doctor in the tardis with river saying they have arrived, where she was supposed to meet the library team. She say's 'till next time sweetie', then she leaves and he breaks down in tears on the tardis floor

The BBC would not spend a couple of million on episodes, just to lock them away for five years. Having unshown episodes Doctor Who festering in the vaults would enrage fans who want to see them and the anti-BBC tabloids who would stir-up outrage over the TV licence fee being wasted.

I'm not talking about real life technicalities, as I already acknowledged in my first post it probably wouldn't happen with production issue's such as thing's like you have said, the thread was more about, if it could have been allowed and possible, do you think it would have actually served the river story better?

See, a better way to do it would've been to end the episode at The Doctor & Donna leaving the Book on the ledge going up the stairs.

The 'saving river' scene is filmed, but not shown.

We assume that River is dead.

Somewhere down the line, The Doctor meets river for the last time, & works out a way to save her that doesn't paradox the universe into oblivion. We then cut back to Tennant running back down the stairs...



Thing is, I always assumed that there was an 'original' timeline where River simply dies, & what we're observing is the 'final iteration' of events.

Basically, The Doctor has tricked out time

yes, I think even something small and subtle like this could have helped to bring her death into the forefront of people's minds, although it may have confused those who didn't remember the details of the original episode

Wouldn't it be fantastic if it turned out that (Peter Capaldi) The Doctor helped River Song, that would be a surprise and River Song doesn't really like to give spoilers away to The Doctor

Im hoping that we see that capaldi is the one who takes her to derillium

I love that River Song understands The Doctor and The Doctor understands River Song, they pass by and cross in style.

To be honest, it would be fantastic if River Song wasn't seen or heard of ever again in the whoniverse. I've always found her smug and irritating.

Exactly like the Ponds thought they did at Lake Silencio? If the Doctor had used the Tesselecta at the Library to save River, then we could have got something cleverer to save the Doctor.

It would also have finally introduced some genuine romance into their relationship before Name of the Doctor. Their 'wedding' was painful, what with the groom calling his bride an 'embarrassment' and being a shape changing robot...