I was under the impression that CoE was almost universally popular.
I myself, haven't watched much Torchwood, but I really liked CoE.

However, I haven't been impressed from what I've seen of Series 1 and 2 and Miracle Day was awful.

I was under the impression that it was well appreciated. It is pretty close to being 'real Sf' rather than telly sci-fi. Damn powerful story as well.

If you saw CoE first, then watched season 1 and 2, then you are going to be in for a shock. 1 and 2 are telly sci-fi. Good telly sci-fi mind you, but still telly sci-fi. CoE is something completely different.

I've not seen MD yet

Spare yourself. Seriously it's 10 hours of your life that you will never get back.

I would recommend watching that one episode set in the past. That was good TV. The rest was awful.

There are a couple of people who really took the Ianto thing badly. They try and rationalise it away as bad writing, "a cheap potshot," "a manipulative stunt," blah blah blah, but it was cracking drama. It's just shorthand for "They hurt me so I'll hurt them," from the people who think the stories in their head are more important than the one on the screen. Fine to have opinions, fine to have strong ones, but "not what I'd have done" and "bad" are not necessarily the same thing.

Children of Earth was by far the most critically acclaimed, publically acclaimed, and fan acclaimed series of Torchwood. Series two was the next-closest, and that still didn't come close.

Here's a good summary of the backlash - http://jamesmoran.blogspot.com/2009/...ping-back.html It was a bit of a storm, but a blip in the grand scheme of things. Ever so small.

It seems those types have now moved onto Sherlock to get their 'kicks'.

They criticise the 'bad writing' but then they seem to forget they're petitioning and screaming out against the death of a fictional character they care a lot about.

To the writer, that's simply a job exceptionally well done

Yes, absolutely! Drama is how we deal with subjects like death, but because it was their favourite character, or part of their favourite pairing, they felt like they were being victimised? I don't know. I fear I'm coming across too harsh. I should clarify that I'm only talking about the mad fringe, the people who think it shouldn't have been allowed to happen. I love the good fandom, the people responsible for the memorial on Cardiff Bay. But drama isn't drama if it's not allowed to hurt, and I think the backlash was so frequently wicked, nasty and petty that I really struggle to give it any credit.

The people who didn't like CoE because of Ianto's death - fine, that's great, it's not exactly feelgood telly and that's possibly the exact emotional response it was aiming to elicit. I get that, and I can totally get why you'd rather watch series one and two. Those people who think CoE's bad because of Ianto's death, those people who attacked and threatened the writers, who didn't think grief was an emotional choice TV should aim for, I really don't understand. I don't know what they think drama is.

Possibly the maddest thing about the whole thing and indeed one of most bizarre things I've ever seen related to DW/Torchwood/Any fandom was the accusation from some heterosexual females that RTD was in fact a secret self hating homophobe who by denying a happy ending (so to speak) for Ianto and Jack was in fact reenforcing prejudice and hatred against gay relationships and helping maintain the heterosexual status quo. You couldn't make it up! One of the most brave and brilliant gay voices in television and drama critcised by spoilt heterosexual brats for raining on their sexual fantasy.

I wouldve thought such madness was a rare blip but having seen some of the reaction so Sherlock series 3 you do wonder about some sections of 'fandom' who seem incapable of separating their day dreams from what makes good drama. Its like me hating Return of the Jedi because it doesn't feature me appearing out of nowhere wielding my 'light sabre', saving Princess Leia in that bikini and whisking her off to Coruscant for texting and scones.

I never got the whole Ianto thing, I found Owen and Tosh's deaths far more upsetting.

Same. Don't get me wrong, Ianto's death did shock me, mostly because I did not expect RTDs to kill off another main character so soon after the last two. It did not upset me though.

I have never actually heard this one before. Wow. They really are mad. If RTDs really was a self-hating homosexual he would not have included all the gay characters/relationships etc... He would certainly not have had Jack kissing the Doctor in DW.

It was admittedly a rather small but vocal group of fans who had obviously invested too much time in 'shipping' (god I hate that term. May it be forever struck from the earth) and were very upset when the writer and creators own vision failed to match up exactly with their own. Which is actually a wider problem among fandom in general these days.

It was very much a repeat of what happened with Joss Whedon and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. You had characters Willow and Tara - the first gay couple on the show. Tara was finally added to the Opening Credits of the show in Season 6 only to be killed off in the very same episode, never to be seen again.
It was cruel, it was harsh and it was an emotional plot... but well done writer. Just as with Jack and Ianto, stories like these are simply showing that gay people are fully capable of being killed off too and aren't just there as 'token gay' characters. In fact they aren't even showing that, these events just merely happen and anyone is capable of being a victim... the sexuality only seems to bother the select few who think it's appropriate to use character sexuality as justification to voice their own frustration.

Exactly. To expect a gay character to function only as a political point or figurehead for a cause is in itself very reductive and just reenforces the notion of gay people somehow being 'other' or 'special'. Why? What Whedon and RTD did was avoid that sort of grandstanding and didn't seek to make a big point of the fact a main character was gay. It was just another aspect of the show/character and as such they were just as likely to endure the same heartbreaks and tragedy as a hetero character. The prejudice was on the part of the people who took issue with it not the writers. Anyone who has a problem with a writer killing off a gay character is as bad as the worst homophobe in the sense they cant see beyond the sexuality to the character underneath. Captain Jack and Ianto worked as a wonderful screen romance/relationship because of the story and who they were. The fact it was two men was irrelevant. Or should have been. But some fixated on it and invested too much in it. It wasn't a political point. It was a love story that ended in tragedy, no different than Ten and Rose in that respect.

I'm quite surprised that in a thread of two pages that nobody has once mentioned the revelation in CoE that was Peter Capaldi. The scene with Frobisher taking his family into the bedroom is just heartbreaking.

I think he might be a face to watch out for

So in your opinion fans have to love everything about the show or are only 'so-called'?



I didn't enjoy Children of Earth either. Yes, it was well acted, directed, produced, etc etc.That didn't stop it being thoroughly depressing in the worst way, destroying characters, the Hub and the concept of TW established in series 1&2 and leaving no hope at the end. I wan't that bothered about losing Ianto except that after wiping out Tosh and Owen it needed more than boring shouty Gwen to make a team. It may have been adult etc but I get that in real life and really don't like seeing someone like Jack who's been written as a hero/anti-hero (depending on where you stand)completely beaten and everything he's done for Earth negated. I wasn't hoping for a happy ending, just not total devastation. And it's made it difficult to watch Series 1 & 2 again as you know what's coming.

The only thing in CoE that really bothered me was the build-up and subsequent pay-off of Jack getting to confront the 456. Torchwood was beaten down and every effort made to keep them out of this situation. But Jack and co do everything they can to fight through because they believe they can stop this enemy.

Then what happens? Jack walks straight up to the aliens and says "no, we're not doing anything you say." Then the 456 kill everyone in the building including Ianto.

What was Jack's plan, exactly? Was he hoping these nasty, nasty aliens were bluffing about killing people? Did he just remember the Doctor shouting "No," at the Daleks in "Bad Wolf" and think, "hey that worked when he did it. I'll give that a go!" - obviously forgetting that the Doctor simply provoked an invasion he couldn't stop and got Jack killed in the process!

They made a big thing about how "this is what Torchwood does. They stop the alien menace," and fought to get their chance to combat the 456; and it would have been ok if their plan simply failed and they underestimated the strength of their enemy. But it seemed like they walked in like a bunch of clueless amateurs, without a single clue on how they were going to defend themselves, let alone the entire Earth.

It made Jack look like a total incompetent that the government were right to keep out of the way.

It doesn't bother me too much, though. IF the rest of the story was average at best, then I would probably have more of an issue with it. But because the rest is so good, I can somewhat overlook it, or at least, not let it affect my enjoyment of the rest of the story.

That is not what I meant. A lot of fans did not care for Miracle Day. It is just that most of the time those who complain are normally trolls who pretend to be fans.

It's funny, because I think that when watching Children of Earth. The thought that the devastating but brilliant (in my opinion) Days Four and Five are then followed by the events of Miracle Day is a difficult one to swallow - to go from one level of quality on the spectrum to the other so swiftly is what is truly devastating. It's a very rare case where I actually pretend in my head that Miracle Day doesn't exist and Torchwood stops with Day Five. I seldom think like that, but in this case I shall do so until Torchwood comes back with something better...if it ever does.



Actually I see it as an important development of character, and something Doctor Who realistically can't show with The Doctor. Captain Jack has always had the upper hand - he's always known the most, he's always had access to technology and power beyond anyone else and he's always been the big asset you want on your side. He's aware of that and like The Doctor, he has blind followers who put all of their faith and trust in him. And they still do all the way to the end - both Gwen and Ianto tell Jack that it wasn't his fault.

But for me, I think the point was that at this stage Jack was an amateur. He's worked so hard to gain an audience with the aliens - because that's usually step one to defeating them - but he does this despite the fact that the aliens have broadcast publicly across the globe and have been totally up-front about their plans and intentions. For all of his knowledge and experience, Jack realises in Day Four that in this instance he's become no more influential than anyone else. He realises this too late, and the price to pay is Ianto's life. He spends Day Five locked in a cell until the chance arises to do something more, but he becomes something wholly different and this ends up costing the life of his Grandson as well.

All put simply, I think Jack was so self-assured that he would be able to resolve the problems if he could confront the 456 that he was completely blind to the fact that the 456 had already confronted everyone. So wrapped up in fighting the alien threat that there were some very human threats he was ignorant to - that ignorance cost him the hub, it put Gwen and Ianto in severe danger, and it later killed Ianto and Steven. He persevered and eventually won out, but it came at a huge cost. "Look what I became" is one of his last lines, and I think a lot of that stems from when he went storming into Thames House.

I can see your point of view if you enjoyed the first two series of Torchwood then you might not like CofE. I think that's part of the problem with Torchwood as a whole, that it was shunted from channel to channel and seemed to have something of an identity crisis. The first two series left me disappointed but they probably had a decent amount of fans and people who were enjoying them. Then along came Children of Earth, which was completely different, adult sci-fi that I had been hoping for since the start, but perhaps alienating many fans of the original two series and then next year it was Miracle Day which was again quite different and seemed to alienate fans of both the original two series and Children of Earth!

They changed Torchwood from series to series a lot more than then they do Doctor Who and I think that was quite damaging to the show in the long run.

I think we are agreeing, really. The point is, Jack acted like a bit of an idiot. He went in with no plan and somehow seemed to think that would work out well. It didn't and he really should have known that.

My guess is that it was an intentional parallel of what the Doctor so often does. He walks in, makes a big speech and somehow avoids getting his head blown off by the armed aliens! There have been many times the Doctor has done that when the enemy should probably have shot him in the face half-way through his monologue. But he's the Doctor and he always gets away with it. I think RTD might have been playing with the notion of "this is what would really happen if you tried to pull that off," because that is kinda the point of Torchwood - it allows you to do the things you wouldn't normally be able to do on Who, such as watch the hero fail spectacularly.

It still makes Jack look like a clueless moron, though.

The weird thing is that I have actually enjoyed parts of every series (yes even Miracle Day). Series 2 gave us a lot more back-story to Jack. Series 3 is my favourite as it had a strong story and was proper adult sci-fi. Series 4 had a good premise but it was not handled correctly. It should not have been over 10 weeks but instead over 5 nights. The other 5 episodes could have been another story over 5 nights. It might have been better without the American influence.

Children of Earth remains, for me, one of the best things I've ever seen on TV. I agree it's the Crowning Jewel of the Who Universe thus far. Critics love the thing... if you guys read Androzani's reviews, those girls HATE Torchwood most of the time, yet love COE. Just goes to show.

Thing is, COE showed us what Torchwood, and RTD, really were capable of. Torchwood was supposed to be this dark adult drama, tackling intense issues that Doctor Who could never go near while keeping in the same Universe. In series 1, it never quite did that. It was like RTD went a bit off the walls, thinking that what constitutes as an adult drama was sex, blood, guts, swearing and more sex. Oh, and an opportunity to show a gay relationship. Ianto and Jack in series 1 is, frankly, a fricking terrible coupling. The ONLY reason I can see them putting them together is to have a gay couple in the show. A gritty revenge plot with Ianto betraying the team was ultimately shoved aside. Terrible writing. It says a lot that Doctor Who series 3 tackled more dark adult issues than it's so called grown up counterpart, and did it superbly; two men who've lost their home (the Doctor and the Master), a woman who loves a man who'll never love her back etc.

It improved a bit in series 2; they toned down the juvenile stuff and actually pulled out of the bag some solid episodes. But it still wasn't really anything special; I watched it because it had Jack and was set in the Who Universe, and I wanted to be up to date with it when the rumours of the Uber Doctor Who series 4 final began to surface on the internet (the reason I first joined Digital Spy!), promising the Torchwood team would be in it, along with Sarah-Jane and her team! The character arc for Owen was just... weird. Brilliant idea, forgotten about and kind of abandoned. Toshiko's death was sad, but also seemed like a waste. Ianto and Jack continued to make no sense, and was shoved even more into the limelight. "Look, a gay couple! Look at us! LOOK!"

Children Of Earth, for me, was everything Torchwood could have been, and if RTD was to ever write his masterpiece, this would be it. It takes everything, EVERYTHING wrong with series 1 and 2 and turns it on its head. Ianto and Jack, for example, work here so beautifully because they finally delve into Ianto's character, showing him with his family and explaining that he's fascinated by Jack, but is conflicted over the mysteries around him. Jack, for his part, cares for Ianto, but I do feel he doesn't realize just how much until it's too late. It's what makes his death all the more sad, and it's a superbly written relationship. RTD doesn't put a foot wrong here, and it does redeem how rubbish it was at the start.

I agree with above posters; Jack marching in to confront the 456 was definitely supposed to be a way of reminding us Jack's not the Doctor. This is a very intense, dark and, at times, hard to watch five episodes of TV, and you could be forgiven for forgetting that it's set in the Doctor Who universe. But, a running theme throughout is that the Doctor does not show up to save the day. Things go from bad, to worse, to worse still, and still he does not come. Jack, always full of confidence, thinks that, today, he has to be the Doctor, but, of course, the Doctor he is not, and this leads to the death of his lover.

What I love about COE most of all is that you can take the Who Universe completely out of the equation and it's still a superb piece of TV. It's main theme is the depths humanity will sink to to survive. That it will happily sacrifice thousands of children to save itself. The villains here are the humans, and while Jack does beat the 456 in the end, you aren't left cheering him on. If anything, you're left cold, and a little appalled. A series that can make you think about it for weeks after is a success.

Which is why it breaks my heart that Miracle Day even exists. Everything COE fixed about Torchwood, everything it did to make it go from an OK show to a superb one, is thrown out of the window. Miracle Day ranged from OK, to bland, to God awful television. RTD and the writing team in general could have done so much better. I agree with an above poster; I like to pretend it never happened. There's no way MD occurred in a Universe with the Doctor in it. No way. What makes COE make so much sense is that it's over in 5 days. The Doctor only comes by now and again. Miracle Day takes place over months, in a time we know the Doctor was around. Maybe he was ignoring calls from the Ponds at the time, but no way in hell would he ignore:

"Doctor! It's Martha! Remember me! The woman who saved your arse a few years back, going on the run for a year... etc? Well, urm, you know that Planet you're obsessed with? Well, nobody's dying! Like, nobody! We dunno what's going on! Doctor, we need you!"

Or maybe he did. Who knows?

That's a really good review, lordo350. <double thumbs up>