I agree with all of that myself..RTD seemed to have an unhealthy fascination with that actor and the TV show Skins as well

I really didn't see any issue with RTD doing that. Its not as if Tovey is a bad actor. If RTD fancied him so what? Irrelevant. It was no different to setting Mickey up with Martha. In fact that made zero sense. I could very well see Jack and Frame enjoying a tempestuous and brief love affair. And for everything that happened Jack was always driven by his heart as much as his head. And that heart was often in his underwear. I found it very sweet. Ten couldn't fix or undo what Jack had gone through. One assumes he knew. If anything he created Jack or at least who Jack became. He couldn't save his soul so he just gave him a chance of at least having a moment of happiness and to forget his woes. Very Ten. Very Jack. Very RTD. Lovely!

and yet the whole premise of miracle day is that there were no death's and yet that was still depressing because it was just so awful. I think that is the one most people would rather see scrubbed from the whoniverse.

children of earth was a bigger, bolder version of it's 2 series predecessors whilst still feeling like the same show (unlike miracle day), and the high body count was just a part of that more intense storyline

COE is up there with the best TV dramas imo, that it is part of the Torchwood/Who universe and sci-fi is completely irrelevant in my evaluation of it.


Once the story is established over the opening 2-3 episodes I especially liked the relentless onslaught of bad news after bad news after bad news with no glimmer of hope.....whatsoever (in fact in a bizarre way it reminded me of Threads in that aspect)
It's adult themes were handled far better than many other sci-fi shows that claim to be adult and dark. The 'final solution' scenes around the COBRA (?) meeting table were superbly written and executed.

Peter Capaldi's portrayal as the nobody civil servant Frobisher unknowingly set up to be the scapegoat is glorious and his slow realisation of this during his one on one meetings with the PM is outstanding.

Capalidi's ability as an actor to stand in front of a glass box filled with smoke and deliver such a mouth drying, finger clenching performance of a person absolutely s***ing it, being completely out of their depth all whilst having to keep diplomatic decorum is a masterclass, it is one of my favourite Tv performances ever.

For me COE is not only up there with Quatermass, Day Of The Triffids and all the other classic UK TV sci-fi dramas but it is also a superb political and social drama in it's own right.

Miracle Day depressed me too!

I think I should stick to children's sci-fi

Everything they just said. Regardless of it being DW related or even Torchwood this was just amazing drama. One of the best this country has ever broadcast. Or any country. Almost perfect. Just one of those special moments when every element comes together to make something truly classic. RTDs finest moment. And even if he never tops it then what a legacy.

and purely as a viewer that week of episodes every night remains one of my favorite television or cultural moments of all time. What a joy it was to have that on every night of the week. So many moments. And though I was not a massive fan of Torchwood season one and two despite my enduring love for Captain Jack I felt a sense of pride seeing a show set in the Doctor Who universe written by RTD trouncing every other drama not only that year but for many before and since.

I agree about Jack and Alonso. I didn't really have an issue with it; if you watched Children of Earth, you knew why Jack was drinking in a Space Bar looking depressed. If you didn't, then you wouldn't have been scratching your head at that; Jack likes a drink, and he is from the future after all. The Doctor introducing him to Alonso was sort of a parting gift to Jack. I think that scene is all the more powerful because they don't speak to each other. They acknowledge each other with mutual respect, then go their separate ways.

However, you know, I actually think Martha and Mickey make sense. Sure, it was tacked on and really needed exploring further, but, from a story stand point, there is a degree of symmetry. Mickey adored Rose, but she loved the Doctor. Martha adored the Doctor, but he loved Rose. So, it made some kind of weird sense that these two would be drawn to each other, plus, after the 2008 final, they were kind of lost and unsure what to do with their lives. But hey, that's just my take on it.

The difference in perceptions amazes me. Once upon a time I could have given you a long, long list of plotholes and other sloppy writing that occurred in COE. But since I've done my level best to expunge the specifics from my brain, that's no longer possible. Sufficed to say that British television was produced better, more thoughtfully produced drama.

Large numbers of Torchwood fans (online of my acquaintance) either left the fandom entirely or did what they could to 'erase' COE. I know of one multimedia fan produced series 3 on LJ plus a few other more modest efforts.

Fans I knew did what they could to 'fix' Torchwood after COE. Miracle Day on the other hand, killed the fandom I knew DEAD. People left in droves - quit comms, stopped writing Fic etc, because they refused to put any more effort in where it seemed the ptb couldn't be bothered to create a property worth caring about.

It's intriguing to hear people going this far, particularly seeing as far larger numbers of Torchwood fans loved Children of Earth (hence the effort made to get a fourth series made). Not that it devalues a differing opinion of course.

I happened to watch Children of Earth very recently and thought it was weird how it occurred within the same universe as the events of recent Doctor Who episodes. But for me CoE is the sublime, unofficial ending of Torchwood. Miracle Day was a US spin-off in pretty much every regard anyway, given that it sidelined the British leads for much of the time and relocated over there, also resorting to poor American tropes.

I bet RTD is truly gutted that a few people on Live Journal and Fan Fiction sites tried to rewrite COE. It must make the millions of viewers and critical acclaim it received pale into insignificance.

How could evil RTD dare to crash their precious Jack and Ianto ship on the rocks of good drama and fantastic writing? After all. Stories be damned. Its gay sex fantasies among teenage girls that really matter.

'Left the fandom'? This is television drama. Not a OneDirection fan club. Put the effort in to what? Badly written fan fictions that only a small group of like minded people read and slap themselves on the back for? Its a cursed word but now we are really talking entitlement. Television drama is not a popularity contest. It should never be written by committee. RTD created this world and these characters and we get to enjoy them. Its sad that some people take it so personally. Alas it seems an odd by product of rabid online fan community's. They get so caught up in it that they forget its not 'theirs'. They have no ownership. They are consumers as we all are. Throwing toys out of prams because it doesn't play out exactly as you want is strange indeed. Not rare though. I've seen vicious comment about Sherlock because of various elements of S3. Poor Amanda Abbington was subject to nasty abuse from some of the more ferocious/desperate fans for daring to be an actress who was cast in a role that spoilt some peoples JohnLock nonsense. Fact is Torchwood 1 and 2 was a sub-Buffy BBC3 series with very little of merit. COE was the equivalent of a monkey building a space ship and flying to the moon. Such an insane step up in quality. It was peerless prime time science fiction written for and enjoyed by everyone. Not written for a few sad sacks who go to conventions and spend their days making tribute videos for Janto set to weak American softcore pop rock because its all about the crying.

It was smart and adult and brave and brilliant. Not the Scooby doo car crash of early Torchwood.

Considering that he is known to regard fans with contempt, I doubt it would have bothered him a jot. I was merely noting that not all fans of Torchwood, especially people who watched the show from its first series and were invested in it early on were impressed with COE.

It was more than shippers who were displeased BTW. So the nasty little dig was uncalled for.

and yet millions tuned in every night and its possibly the best reviewed thing RTD has ever written.

and yes I think 'shippers' are a laughable sub section of fandom that should never be taken seriously.

RTD doesn't show contempt for his audience. He just doesn't write for them. He has his own vision. Most people recognise COE for the brilliant show it was. The rest are too busy putting flowers down at the HUB and being terribly childish.

Fandom - a place where people gather either online or in person to discuss and celebrate media properties. In the process of doing so they might create social relationships. Or not. Everyone's experience is different.

Considering this message board is a fan space, especially by people not invested in Doctor Who or its related properties, I'm marginally baffled by the snide attitude. Everyone engages media differently. Some people make it a shared experience and find their enjoyment multiplied for it. Other people don't. Whatever floats boats.

Same goes for COE. The question was asked why people disliked it, which is a minority opinion on this board. I've given several reasons including discontinuity of characterisation and tone. I also mentioned that it had a negative impact on the social experience of some fans. Which is a perfectly legitimate reason to lose interest in a media property.

I'm aware that it was well regarded by critics and many viewers. I wasn't one of them. That doesn't make me wrong or my opinions less valid than people who liked it, just different.

Except you haven't given any concrete reasons. You even said there were plotholes and problems but you've 'expunged them' from your memory. You must remember.

and no i don't agree. I'm not even sure what you mean by 'social experience' of fans but I do know its not a decent enough reason to critique a piece of drama. Do you mean because a few fans got upset because Ianto died and decided to 'leave the fandom' that this is in some way RTDs fault or a comment on the quality of COE? No it isn't. Its just fans acting like spoilt brats.

You seem to be skating around the real reasons you dislike COE.

And when it comes to 'fandoms' then great. Whatever floats your boat as you say. Its wonderful that there is now a social aspect to it all. But that is meaningless in reference to the quality of the drama itself. I would pray that RTD and Moffat write what the hell they want. And never consider anyone. Whether that be me or a casual viewer or t shirt wearing cosplay enjoying screaming fans. If you find social contact through something like Torchwood then that's a by product. It means nothing to the actual direction of the show. Do you think RTD shouldn't have killed off Ianto because it upset some fangirls/boys? Because it meant that they wont appear at conventions anymore? Irrelevant. Its just garnish. And if a community is that strong and the fan fiction so great then you can write it forever. Shouldn't matter what happens on screen.

And you seem to have missed the posts where I said that while as an independent drama it was an exercise in Nihilistic tosh and grafting the remaining characters from Torchwood was such an abrupt shift in tone that it caused whiplash to longtime viewers who liked what came before. I also mentioned how it undid any evolution of character Jack made during the first two series.

Hard to believe, I know, but some viewers, including me, liked Torchwood before RTD took back the reins to correct what had come before.

'correct' is the right word. COE was one of the greatest turn arounds in TV history.

I think its best we leave it there. If you truly think it was just nihilistic tosh then we clearly have diametrically opposed views on what constitutes good television.

For the record, I'm in a different minority that thinks that Series 1 and 2 were quite good (odd episodes here and there that shall not be mentioned) and then Series 3 simply bested them. It didn't make the first two series rubbish by comparison and I love revisiting them.

And my personal opinion is that Series 1-3 are total character development for the team. I don't think RTD back-pedalled anything, particularly Jack come the third series. Early on Jack/Ianto was awkwardly introduced, but by CoE it was turned around into a credible relationship. We'd seen Jack develop from the largely promiscuous character of the Series 1 time frame, who would happily chat up Ianto, Martha, The Doctor, Chantho...anyone he could. And by Series 3 he was in an exclusive relationship, that though was savagely torn apart, was done so with incredible tenderness and dramatic impact. It wasn't a happy ending, but it was a powerful ending.
Similarly I'd say Gwen developed from a conflicted woman lost between her men and her careers, to a very assured woman who loved her husband and her job. You only need to see her anxiety in the first episode of Series 1 standing outside the hub, to her confident strolling in and talking to the locals in the opening episode of Series 3 - little examples of development along the way that made the character hugely credible. Ianto barely needs referencing - his story was mediocre at best in the first series given that the Lisa plot jarred so much with his interest in Jack - it wasn't quite so smooth. But come the third series, he's gone from being a confused teaboy to a proper member of the team. Development of the highest order.

I see Series 1-3 as "Jack's saga"...it started with his death following The Parting of the Ways, and it finished with him finding a life of his own away from The Doctor come the end of Children of Earth. I had almost wished that the fourth series would be something of a fresh start and we'd get either a new time era, a new setting or just an all new team. Miracle Day was awful, and Children of Earth was a tragic but fitting epilogue to the story started with Everything Changes.

I agree, and with just about everything you've said. I have 3 friends I discuss Who, TW etc with and of the 4 of us 2 loved it and 2 hated it. We all agreed it was extremely well done but for me and others it was too nihilistic (glad you thought of that one) and ruined TW. I have this thing that of course I can watch 'serious, adult drama' but prefer it not to be quite so very black and RTD seemed to take delight in grinding down Jack more than he's ever been before, for what? They could have left a ray of hope for him but decided instead to negate all he and TW have done on Earth since his return and literally and figuratively obliterate the character we were getting to know better in TW in the process.
Okay it may have been good TV drama, fine, there are hundreds of those. For me, good TW it wasn't.

Agreed. For all the criticism series one, in particular, gets, Greeks Bearing Gifts and They Keep Killing Suzie were an ace two weeks. I watched both series on broadcast, and at no point was I ever watching more out of commitment than pleasure. One and two were flawed but nonetheless very entertaining. CoE is another league, though.

Which is the point that some (not all!) militant fans of COE can't seem to absorb. The OP asked why in other fan spaces COE wasn't universally adored. Many fans of the show, the ones ironically that were courted prior to its transmission and told to get stuffed by the ptb afterwards for being unappreciative, disliked COE because it lacked what they had come to love about Torchwood; its rag tag optimism. They wanted Team Torchwood to save the day and to see them hold their heads high as they were lauded for their clever, impossibly derived solution to the 456, not slink away into hiding or be laid out for burial. (And that included the hub and Myfanwy.)

saladfingers81, methinks thou dost protest too much!

I appreciated the tonal shift in CoE - TW kind of finally found out what it should have been all along - but that doesn't mean that the writing itself was any great step up. It still relied on the same cartoon villains and convenient ways of taking out worldwide threats. And Ianto's death was worthless.

It was good, it was much improved, but could have been more.

I must be in the minority (again) but I realy liked both series 1 & 2 of Torchwood. OK some of the stories were a bit thin but others explored some pretty unpleasent ideas. CoE was a great 5 part series, sometimes shocking sometimes funny but never boring. Miracle day was just a mess. RTD should be ashamed of that traversty. The one thing about Torchwood that I could never get my head round, was how Ianto suddenly became gay. He was as straight as a die in the begining, even preparing to risk his career and friends to save his girlfriend and then suddenly - WHAM he's exchanging tongues and bodily fluids with Jack. It seemed too contrived to me. Perhaps he was exposed to some sort of Alien influence that suddenly turned him gay (being sarcastic there) but it was never explored or explained why he suddenly fancied Jack.

Not sure what you mean, Children of Earth was amazingly well received, far more so than any other series of torchwood. Theres a rabid little band of people who hate it because the writers dared to kill of Ianto, but thats about it as far as I am aware….

All that coffee sent in the post and flowers left at the Cardiff location set...not fandom's greatest moment it has to be said.