The judges are inconsistent with their comments, yes, but I agree with Jason about Ray.

When Ray skates, I never notice that he hasn't done lifts like headbangers, upside down things, dangling by ankles etc and I thoroughly enjoy their routine regardless. When the others skate, if they don't put a lift or two in I feel there's something missing from the routine, as if all it is is the two of them scootling around the ice like they're at a local ice rink.

Every week he comes out and you can see why he gets the scores he gets. There is nothing complicated about it. He comes out, is in a league of his own and gets the top marks.

Tonight, I thought it was dull, boring, lacking any real statement moves and and totally underwhelming. The level of over the top comments, tears even !!!!, I found ridiculous. It was not a patch on previous weeks, not that he skated any of it badly, but the general routine was …. DULL !

The tears from Karen were pathetic!

Don't think its that bad. Ray, Suzanne, Beth, Kyran and Bonnie have all been seen doing some moves that feature in Olympic routines, and there's been a few more shown in the training VTs. The problem would be there's not enough moves, or big enough moves, to build any significant score, and the performance might not win the mark for performing them.

Ray still can't do many tricks beyond his leaps, and his lifts are basic. Its been Suzanne and Beth doing the new moves so far, and Kyran is the one with the axel in his kit bag. Ray also loses any significant advantage against one of the female dancers with a real good dance routine, that only needs doing at their own speed. People might like his routine, speed and tricks more , or they might prefer a better routine, anothernmore experienced actor acting, or some good female tricks he can't put up.

I don't think we will ever now know who is the best male or female. We were told Mathew W was better that series, and Chris could do things Ray can't and most of what he can. We didn't get to see that play out - In the same way the female competition suffers now from not having Clare, Jorgie, or now Suzanne, in it at the crucial stages.

I have just been looking online and I may be wrong and I appolgise if so but when Chris fountain skated I am sure there was a massive hoo her made of him doing a triple Axel ... rather like the head banger used to get ... I then remember ray getting the same for his in his series ... I thought he also did this in a few weeks ago... I am looking on you tube now ... I know kerion Chris andray have ddone Axel jumps and I'm sure the triple has been done or at lest attempted by both even if it was slightly short or not landed correctly but I'm Olympic scoring its still of high difficulty and is scored high even if it isn't completed correctly.... if I am wrong I apologise I must have been dreaming lol but I am trying to get links should I be correct

I have found Chris doing the triple Axel in his time warp .... ray doing Russian spit jumps and I am sure he attempted the triple Axel during all stars I will keep looking lol

It wasn't a triple axel that Chris attempted, it was a single axel and he under rotated it.

Nobody on Dancing on Ice has EVER done a triple axel. As I said last night you must of dreamt it!!

You obviously don't know much about skating! There is no way EVER a celeb has done one on the show, these things takes YEARS of training and even then some people struggle!

Chris did NOT do one

Ray did NOT do one

The choreography wasn't as exciting with the jumps and lifts, but the way he moves on the ice looks effortless, smooth and graceful. For all his multi talented successes I think Robin is right about him having had the potential to be a gold medallist had he taken skating up at a younger age.

Beautiful skating routine from Ray and Maria last night.
Ray is a joy to watch.
It's the effortless way he glides over the ice and all the little touches that make him such a lovely skater.
He makes it look too easy....but when you watch Kyron and Sam skate - good though they are - watched alongside Ray you can see the difference straight away.
Well deserved tens!

Indeed .

Nobody on Dancing on Ice has ever done a double jump (of any description) let alone a triple. All jumps attempted have been singles. The reason the axel was made so much of is that it requires one and a half turns in the air rather than just one.

Oh, and Ray has never attempted one on the show. Nobody has, I don't think, Chris Fountain aside although it's documented that Kyran can and has done one elsewhere.

I think Kyran did an axel at the ice party. I remember him and Chris doing it.

I can say I witnessed Kyran doing and landing his single axel at Ice Party!

I agree, it was all about expressing the music and he did just that, he didn't need any tricks

I think it was a beautiful routine, reminded me of when he skated to You Make it Real, and think it was a nice change as it showed his diversity.

I am not for one second criticizing Ray here I think he is AMAZING! and has deserved his scores so far however from now on the judges really need to start judging more objectively they can't just throw 10.0s and perfect 40s at him every single week without fail, they need to start been more critical and take off their rose tinted specs as i'm sure if you looked hard enough , there would be something that Ray could improve on.

Ray skates effortlessly. I really enjoyed his routine last night. It was simple and complex at the same time.

I agreed with Karen (for once) when she said that because Ray is so good, his partner can also shine to her full ability. Maria & Ray looked in-sync with each-other. That's not something you see naturally in the other partnerships, imo.

When Chris and Jayne danced Bolero they were doing the opposite from other contestants in the Olympics, with very few lifts and only one simple high one. However it was the best Ice Dance so far in living history.

Ray and his partner are by far the best couple in Dancing on Ice and do not to need lifts because everything they do is way above the other contestants.

Except to do that, you have to mark others realistically too. I agree with what you're saying to a large extent but when the judges have already chucked a few 9.5s at routines that weren't performed as well, they leave themselves with nowhere to go if Ray comes out and skates better.

Thats one of the main flaws in the show though. You can't express yourself to the music, if the music goes nowhere. Bolero requires the bolero. Its entirely in the hands of who wrote the choregraphy and picked the music. Give Hayley or Suzanne, or Bonnie an equally good choice of music, and the difference is minimal because they will do something equally graceful, at least as well acted, at their own speed. Thats what dancers can do - even if its not fair for Kyran or Beth.

There's also a not well thought through merger of ice dance and pairs skating going on in the show. That means difficult tricks are on the agenda - for those who can do them. Expectations, risk, larning time, and marking scales are not equal. Ray can dance because he's not being asked to do tricks he can't do - other people are getting the routines with the tricks and lifts he can't do. That wouldn't matter in figure skating - as the tricks would decide the mark available, and doing them correctly counts, and content counts more than artistic impression. On DOI, there's a complete mess - Ray can get top marks without tricks on skating and dance ability, Hayley can get top marks on dance ability , and there is no tariff that rewards for difficulty, or system that allows everyone who might want to, to try Ray and Hayley routines.

I think part of it is a lack of understanding on the part of the general public regarding the lifts.

They tend to think of the 'flashier' up over the shoulder lifts or the headbanger as being the most difficult when in actual fact they are not.

Ray & Maria cannot do the headbanger because Maria isn't short enough in comparison to Ray, and frankly it's an ugly move that quite rightly is not allowed in competetive pairs.

A rotational lift (when the man is rotating round and around on the ice whilst still travelling across the ice) with the woman at or about shoulder level is far harder than a drap lift for example (with the woman lifted above the shoulders). As is a lift done when the man is in spread eagle position. This is because it is really difficult to maintain your edges and your partners position.

In fact there were similar lifts to Ray & Maria's in the Olympic ice dance final last night.

Thing is they don't look flashy, so sometimes the public don't realise how tricky these are do and get looking good.

Ray deserved his scores this week, as the judges had overmarked Hayley and Suzanne (Hayley more so), they had to mark Ray high. And don't get me started about undermarking this week either - Beth (as usual), and Kyran also - he did either a good rotational lift or a spreadeagle position lift too.

Yup, I doubt any of the pros on DOI could do a triple axel!!

This is a triple axel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdkDLBmBFBU

Most of the celebs on DOI have done a waltz jump (half rotation in the air), the easiest jump to do.

The only ones to do a single jump (full rotation once in the air) on the show have been Kyran (this series, a flip jump), him and Chris can apparently do an axel (single though), Beth did a prep axel (still 1 full rotation). Ray did something similar in his original series, just after his split jump in the same routine, 2 footed landing and not quite the full rotation, am fairly sure he did do some kind of full rotation single jump at some point during his series.

Suzanne was shown doing one in training, just a shame we won't see it in a routine.

Really wish they would go back to doing a required element each week again, then we would really see how well they can skate. It being the Champion of Champions they could easily have 3 required elements expected in each routine! Like a spiral, spin and jump!

That is an assumption that Ray is not being asked to do as many 'tricks' as the others because he cannot. In spite of this, the judges - including a couple of Olympic ice dance athletes – consistently score him highly (and mostly the highest among all those taking part).

Is it not therefore just as likely that, for example, Beth and Keiran are given routines that focus on tricks because they showcase their strength and agility and help to mask the fact their their dancing is weaker than Ray's? Or that Hayley often gets routines that showcase her acting and presentation skills but minimise the need for fluid, confident skating - Jai Ho being a prime example.

I'd call a Russian split jump a 'trick' and Ray is one of the very few contestants who has managed that. He has also done numerous lifts, though doesn't tend to do the ones that involve hoisting his partner high above his shoulders. I'd be curious to know the weight ratio between Ray and Maria compared with that of Kyran and Nina, or Sam and Vicky, as that may explain a lot. Ray may have muscled up a bit since his first series of DOI, but he's still one of the more slightly built male contestants.

You say there is no tariff that rewards for difficulty – but that surely depends on what you find difficult? It seems to me that Beth and Kyran would struggle far more to actually dance rhythmically and in synchronicity across the ice the way Ray does than Ray would to learn the techniques to lift Maria above his shoulders. But there are still three shows left - perhaps we'll all find out?