'thenetworkbabe' made a point I've never noticed before - Hayley avoids heights in the lifts. She never does a platter lift or drape lift for example.

Beth should be back on form next week so we wait to see if her scores go up at all. Also the skate off will interesting as it's likely to be Sam v Beth or Sam v Hayley. And if the latter, will the judges go for Riverdance or Jai Ho - technically Riverdance is more difficult, as Jai Ho is all static dancing, toe picks, two lifts and a spin (unless something is added to it).

Hayley avoids heights, but doesn't Dan in general? Okay so he did more when he was with Beth, but generally avoids them more than the other pros. The limits of routines and what you can and can't do are as much down to the pros and their strengths and preferences as they are with the celeb. Beth landed on her feet this year with a strong guy who can do it all.

I disagree with Hayley always getting crowd pleasing routines. Week 1 and last week were very dull. This week she was overmarked and it wasn't that memorable. Beth has had as many good routines - the difference is Hayley looks like she's enjoying hers, actually giving a performance, not simply going from move to move, though don't get me wrong I think Beth has improved here and deserves to make the final.

I enjoy both, but Hayley more so. I think she can do better than she's been given, like the Charleston routine showed. Most of them have been limited whereas Beth's have more been limited by performance.

Oh, I agree that she doesn't always get the memorable routines - but she does get routines which play to her strengths far more than the others do.

Even this week we heard Beth say in her VT that she was being given new lifts and tricks to learn even though she was clearly very ill and struggling - while Hayley was given yet another dancing on toepicks routine with catchy music and bright costume - nothing new or stuff she hasn't done a million times before. Beth's choreography, music and costume were totally bland in comparison.

If Hayley gets put in the skate off next week - she will get through on the basis of performing Jai Ho - another memorable routine, great music, great choreo fab costumes and with one of the Pussycat Dolls on the panel she will get through - even though he multiple spin is done from a standing start (simple in comparison to what Ray did last night) lots of on the spot dancing on toepicks, with frantically waving arms and a couple of simple lifts..... looks good but not actually that much content or difficulty compared to what her opponent will do.

But hang on, isn't that where Beth's strengths lie? She gets to do big tricks and lifts every week - which is HER strong point. Her weak point is performance, so they focus on the lifts, and if anything they try to make the routines more rounded by giving some performance in there. She is undermarked at times though, yes, but I feel that's nothing to do with Hayley (apart from last night where she was overmarked) and more to do with Kyran, Suzanne and Sam often getting higher scores than Beth when they shouldn't be. Especially Kyran and his china shop runs.

The fact that Hayley isn't given new stuff - and regardless of what anyone thinks, I'm damn sure she could easily learn new things - shows that she's as much a victim of choreography as anyone. The only difference is obviously her marks haven't suffered as much, but that's nothing to do with Beth's positioning which is a seperate issue with the judges.


You've kind of said it yourself, though - memorable routine, great choreo, looks good. This is Dancing on Ice, a celeb based skating show, and that's exactly what Hayley does there and does it well. Give that routine to Beth and could she do it? Yes, but would it look good? I highly doubt it, especially with Beth's arms and lack of energy performance wise.

This is why I and many others like Hayley, she is great to watch, when given the right stuff, which she hasn't always. It's what she does well, and Beth has what she does well. Both fall short of being the total package however, but everyone's got flaws except Ray really.

Anyway assuming Hayley is in the skate off - I wouldn't trust her not to mess it up, especially after Suzanne, so it might be she goes yet.

Well said. Agree totally.

My point was - Beth was clearly struggling - and could have re-used some of her older tricks - lifts and none of us would have noticed as a lot of them seem to be simple variations on a theme - except in Beth's case. Being able to do stuff she had already mastered would have allowed her to go to bed and recover or spend more time on the solo skate. Hayley gets away with the same old... same old every week without comment!

And i disagree - I think Beth COULD do Jai Ho quite easily - she may not be a dancer - but she was a top class gymnast who had to do floor exercises to music so whilst not as experienced in "dance" per se - she does have musicality.

In fact - every single girl in the competition could do Hayley's showstopper routine of Jai Ho - but Id have liked to see Hayley do some of their routines.... I very much doubt she could have matched any of them in terms of solo skating, lifts or tricks as she is utterly reliant on Dan and her toe picks.

It boils down to fair play - and to me and a lot of other viewers (not just DS members) Beth isn't being fairly treated.- she is getting little or no recognition and praise for executing her choreography well, nor does she get credit for the improved "performance" she is putting in this series, nor for the fact that she can do lifts and tricks Hayley can't even dream about in terms of difficulty (well going on the routines she did in her own series and in this one anyway) All of the others have taken their old routines and skills and built on them for this series - I don't see Hayley doing that. But let's face it she seems to be the "chosen female" this series - despite being the weakest of all of them, and can do no wrong as far as the judges are concerned.

Whilst the show is called Dancing on Ice - the ICE bit of the title is what it should be about - most of Hayleys routines could be done on a dance floor as there is so little skating content in them... take away her toe picks and see how she manages... and based on what we saw last night - the answer would be - not very well!

Hayley couldn't have done the duel with Ray - or even any of the others and won - she was very lucky that she was paired with Beth who can seemingly do no right for the judges!

I think you are right about Dan - but its odd given his build. Lukacs does big lifts with his pro partner from a much smaller frame. He seemed limited lifting Suzanne and Clare , but is getting some big lifts up with Beth who is actually slightly taller. Dan looks as if he could easily lift Hayley - who is the same height as the other top females. Does he have a problem, does Hayley not like heights?

Beth's problem is partly that she can do things. If you can do difficult moves, or lifts, or steps you get them to learn . Last night she had new lifts and new moves. Hayley didn't have anything like that to learn. Beth then had more moves to learn for her solo routine. If you are doing something difficult and new, its inevitable you will concentrate more on it, and be more anxious. However, if you cant do big lifts, or big moves , you can't be given them. You will be given something that you can do. If you are doing what you can do, you have all your concentration free to act what you are doing. Add to that, who is the non actor in a group with 12 actors, who has a new partner, and who has dance training, and its pretty obvious who has most to cope with while doing a routine.

But thats where the show fails.

Jai Ho wins because its a coherent routine which builds on exciting music. It builds from the week when Hayley did well at spinning, and that adds what looks like one difficult move. . The problem is that you end up marking the choregraphy - which was imported - against weaker T and D routines - because they can't write many very good routines. . .

They then fail to follow where ice skating went, and don't mark predominantly for difficulty. That means those who can do difficult things get extra risk and work - but with no reward - while those who can't avoid risk, and can concentrate on what they can do. . Thats precisely why the professionals stopped marking from marks like 10 or 6 - even when they already had a content and performance mark.

They then confuse ice dance with pairs skating - probably because ice dance requires too much dance skill, and very good routines, and what could be achieved would look dull to a modern audience. That leaves those who can, doing more exciting pairs skating moves ,and some that are not allowed in competition. That would be fine - if it didn't mean they then ignored the extra difficulty, and marked straight dancing and acting higher. Its also led to people being marked by individual expectations, and not relative to each other, and typecast into harder or easier routines.

I don't think Ray is that complete either - not against the range of skills other people are doing at different extremes. He's very good at a wide range of skills in the middle and matches Hayley for dance and acting ability. He's not obviously the one who looks most like a complete male pro in his skills range. A strong. complete. competitor might be a mixture of Kyran's power, and Ray's multiple other talents. The nearest might be a shorter voter friendlier Sam, who would need to dance and act a bit better, or a Chris, who can do some bigger moves.

It's not exactly without comment as the judges certainly pulled her on her skills the other week. And the facial expressions. She's not getting away scot free, and it's only last night I feel she was severely overmarked.

We all agree Beth is getting a hard time but it's nothing to do with Hayley, and if Hayley could do Beth's moves mixed with her own charisma and performance she'd be perfect, but she can't and this also shows why Beth suffers, as she can't perform like Hayley. She never really has. I just enjoy her for what she is.

Beth is actually getting very good routines apart from the odd one or two. Great moves, good songs, great choreo. But she doesn't always pull it off. Hayley however has only had one or two truly decent routines. The scores are another matter, but the issue with Beth's undermarking is nothing to do with Hayley as this happened in her original series too.


So what if she can't do what Beth does? Beth can't do what Ray does, and Ray probably can't lift like Kyran, and Kyran can't dance like Sam etc etc. Beth can do those things and that's great, yet she still doesn't always shine in a performance. Hayley has her own strengths.

We'll just disagree on the Jai Ho thing. I cannot imagine Beth making it look anything other than technically fine and mechanical, not quite as fluid as Hayley.


It's all well and good being difficult but it's got to look comfortable and enjoyable and be the package. Some of her routines are too mechanical. Yes she's concentrating on these tricks but at what cost? She's not always undermarked anyway, not always at the bottom or near it.

If Hayley is given a superb routine that plays to her strengths best (charleston) and Beth is too, I can't help but think Hayley's ends up better.


Presumably she was lucky that Beth simply wasn't all that great at it too. She deservedly won that day, stupid idea though the Duel is. And no one would have won against Ray.

At the end of the day, Beth is definitely undermarked and often spectacular to watch, whereas Hayley is being given good marks despite the routines not always matching up, but that's again down to choreography. She has her limits, but it's not her fault she hasn't always got a charleston to do (which was amazing) and that the judges rate her. Hayley isn't the only one to be given so-so routines, but she's one of the few who can make those routines look as good as possible.

Who knows - but remember Hayley did do a headbanger in her series (albeit from the floor which most girls start off with anyway) and that was after falling in her routine, so she clearly can do riskier stuff but maybe like you they don't like heights. Dan is also primarily a solo skater isn't he, which probably impacts on his lifts. He did the most with Beth, because she's a gymnast, but not too much with anyone else.

Beth has improved this series mostly because of her new partner I suspect! I wonder what Hayley would have done with Lukas. Obviously not the same as Beth, but I bet there'd be more lifts to silence some critics here - not that I find lifting essential.


Of course, and it's amazing Beth does this and it's fab to watch - but you can't then ignore the concentration aspect. If she's given that to do we still have to enjoy the performance as a whole and not see someone merely thinking what her next move is.

I agree with all the above comments about Beth! I just get so annoyed watching her skate so well, ok may be occasionally doesn't show performance, but when she does she still gets low marks! It is very unfair and very noticeable that she doesn't seem liked by the judges! Even though she wasn't well last night she still managed a great solo skate with spins, jumps and on one leg but no credit, Kyran was given a 9.5 for a similar routine!

I thought Ashley and Jason were rude to her last night and Robin and Karen were not much better!

100% agree.

There seems a lot of manipulation by the Producers in this series, with some of the strange markings, odd pairings, etc.
If this wasn't already planned to be the last series, it probably has lost so much credibility as a "contest", that it would probably die the death anyway.

So true with the dreadful marking this year and obvious favouritism!

But what are you supposed to do, just think, "oh well, Jai Ho is imported, it's lead by the music and much of the arm movements, we best not give it too high a score" when it's still clearly a fabulous routine?

We all know the marking or more specifically the comments from the judges have made little to no sense since about 2012 and that the judges seem to have lost their way in what they're saying, constantly contradicting themselves and never really looking at the whole picture and simply giving a mark. I have no idea why it's ended up like that, it's one of many reasons the show is going, but there you have it. It should be so easy as well. Things feel more contrived now - the Matt L thing would never have happened in the earlier years, there was the required element, and of course no twists.

And marking choreography given by T&D has been flawed for a while now. It IS unfair. Like Suzanne's rubbish routine in 80s week - how on earth do you give it a good score, when it's terrible, despite being performed okay? What do you base the scores and comments on when the routine is entirely given by T&D and the skaters can only use their strengths/weaknesses to enhance the routine or not.

Jai Ho deserved those top scores but I do get your point. It felt like this was never an issue in the early days, even up to and including Hayley's series. Maybe it's just because the routines are more stale and the gulf in quality in what people get based on their ability seems to vary week on week depending on what and to who T&D dish out. Series 7 had the best set of contestants bar none (Matthew, Jorgie, Chico, Chemmy, Sebastian, Jennifer) but not a single memorable routine all series, not really. Is it because we never really thought about it back in the early days or has it really changed?

Either way it seems much more flawed and obvious now. Unless everyone gets a good routine, based on ability, how can you fairly rate anything? The only way this show could continue to exist is if they adopted a Strictly Come Dancing approach where each pair does their own routine, but of course that's not perfect either, especially as Strictly has set templates in dance styles, something you can't always do in DOI. Isn't it telling that possibly the best episode this series (and maybe in the last couple of years) was the one where they all DID have a dance style?

Anyway I digress, but yes...it's all a bit of a mess at times.