have been recently re-watching children of earth and remember thinking when it was originally shown how brutal it was what jack had to do to save all the children, and that the doctor would never do something like that, he would alway's find another way, but watching it now, I think of the beast below and how the doctor was going to do exactly what jack did to save everyone. I just thought it was intersting the similarities between these two different characters and two different moment's but then also it made me think about how most of us want a darker doctor with capaldi but matt smith's doctor was pretty dark in the sense he was the only doctor willing to kill (as far as I know). Also if you think of solomon in dinosaurs in a spaceship, not only was he willing to kill, but he was actually happily choosing to do so when he didn't have to.

basically, I'm just wondering, why is it that matt smith's doctor was willing to kill where other doctor's, who were the same man, were not. Also before anyone say's it I know some might say that for most of his tenure he believed he already had committed mass genocide in the time war, but I don't believe this has any bearing for two reason's. Firstly it didn't make eccleston and tennant think killing was ok and secondly, pushing a button on a detonator from miles away and not seeing the ensuing carnage is a bit different from actually being by someone/something and causing their individual death. So yeah, a bit of a long winded thought train about the dark nature of eleven.any thought's?

Not quite true... Rose had to stop 9 from killing the single Dalek, and he was going to wipe out half of the Earth's inhabitants.

And 10 had to be stopped on a few occasions, too - especially with the Racnoss, where he would have died due to his want to kill them all - even the newly hatched babies. Also, the fates he left The Family in were arguably worse than death. They were particularly cruel and vindictive.

The Doctor has always been a man of muddy morals. It's certainly nothing new to 11.

Here is an interesting link http://drwho.answers.wikia.com/wiki/...or_ever_killed

I only just watched Brain of Morbius last week, I can't think of any one he directly killed in that?

I remember the first Doctor was a bit dark at the start. He was all set to toss Ian and Barbara off the ship into the Vortex at one point!

Actually, the Doctor didn't want to kill the Beast in that episode. He was going to lobotomise it - technically it was still alive, but wouldn't be conscious or feel pain.

And it wasn't an act of aggression, or even to protect others. It was (supposedly) a kindness - to put an old, suffering, tortured creature out of its misery.

I think you can at least say more prominent with 11. and what is the wiping out half of earth's inhabitant's with 9 all about?, can't remember what your referring to

didn't think it was, was more making the point about the fact he was willing to do it at all, and although maybe not an actual death, lobotomy is still taking away everything the creature was, and is basically a living death, which is why he was so disgusted with himself that he was going to do it, but despite that , he still was going to.

The Parting of the Ways - his final episode. The Delta Wave cannot be focused, so will take out most of the Earth's population, as the BAD WOLF satellite/Satellite 5 is in orbit of it.

I disagree with the 'more prominent' too, actually (I know, surprising... ). If anything, he was more child-like than the two before him. I don't think there is any appreciable difference in 'dark'ness between the three NuWho Doctors. Even the War Doctor was only 'dark' when on his own... He was quipping and jibing quite well with 10 & 11!

The Usual Video response to the question about the Doctor killing.


The sound of the guys neck snapping is a bit gruesome



Warning: Soundtrack contains swearing.

cool link, although his stance on killing does seem to have been occasionally questionable in the past, is there anything equal to solomon's death, where the doctor killed for no reason, committed a murder in which didn't save or help anyone, he just did it because he didn't like the guy, because I think most other's can be explained away with some sort of need or reason except this one, to me this example is pretty much the most evil death ever attributed to him.

but with all other's there's alway's been a legitimate reason, like the person/villain's death will save the day or something similar. Where in the new who doctor's before has there ever been a instance, like the solomon death, where he killed for no reason, just because he disliked the person and felt like it? that's what I mean by more prominently dark

Solomon's death wasn't for no reason (he had murdered the entire crew in *ahem* cold blood), but it definitely went beyond the Doctor's usual code of ethics.

I would argue that his lies and betrayal of Amy's older self in The Girl That Waited was worse.

The Amy thing was harsh, but as far as I can see, once they left, older Amy would have never existed anyway.

As for the Solomon thing, when I say for no reason, I mean it was just because he didn't like him because of the thing's he'd done as you mentioned, rather than there being a reason for him having to die for the sake of something in the future. he killed him just because he wanted to rather than because there was any reason that he had to.

I agree. He'd made an assessment that Solomon couldn't be redeemed.

The Doctor killed the freshly hatched Racnoss young without nary a thought for their innocence (they had just hatched, they would know no difference if they were to kill).

He coldly lied to Amy to manipulate them into being able to keep 'his' Amy. Musch more calculatingly cold than killing someone who he knew would cause genocide on a whim. Bear in mind that he gave Jex the opportunity to redeem himself from murders arguably worse, but at least the same level of criminality, in the very next episode.

This isn't normally how he feels he's allowed to operate though is it. In evolution of the dalek's he said he was willing to take dalek khan to another place to start again, even though he knew all daleks are irredeemable and this one in particular had done terrible things.

Also, I know you mentioned the racnoss thing for tennant, which is a black mark against his name, but the fact of the solomon thing, and the Amy stuff in the girl who waited that keep's getting brought up, It still seem's like there's a lot more evidence in favour of smith being the worst.

I think we're agreeing - Eleven was a lot more likely to 'do what must be done', he was more willing to get his hands dirty than the 'lonely god' or 'idealistic hero' that he was before.

In light of The Day of the Doctor, I suppose this makes sense - his predecessor was perhaps more strongly pacifistic as a reaction to the horrors of the war, while Eleven distanced himself from that.

The Man Who Regrets, and The Man who Forgets.

I think that was quite the opposite. The doctor saw, for the first time ever, that there was now an option for the Daleks to evolve into a new, peaceful species. He offered to take them to a new planet (though I think it was Dalek Sec and Caan was the one who went mad breaching the time-lock to save Davros) because he saw a potential in the human-Dalek hybrid and wanted to take the opportunity to help the Daleks redeem themselves and become something better.

That opportunity never existed in the past and probably never will again. But it was a chance to make them redeemable, even if it ultimately failed.

Particularly since their cult was formed in order to allow them to think in non-Dalek ways. If any Dalek were able to consider another way of living, it would be those ones.

Wasn't Six pretty dark?

put like that I think we are, that was certainly the kind of thing I was getting at, and I think your right about their reasoning why too

you may be on to something with that particular example, but their are other examples, such as the sycorax for example. What I was trying to say about the fact that he usually dosen't feel like he get's to decide who lives or dies. Sometimes baddies get killed in the heat of the moment or as a result of the their own action's but if they are still alive after the story is mostly wrapped up and the danger has passed, then he feel's like he has to let them live. Usually he would never just kill them anyway because he felt like it, because he dosen't feel he has the right to pass ultimate judgement in that way, whereas 11 with solomon, he just did.

Soloman is a intersting example. What should 11 have done instead ?. Reported him and got him locked up ?. He might have gone on to kill more innocent people/creatures just for his own greed and profit.Guess it's why he needs freinds around him. To keep him stable and calm. At least Amy made him make a different choice in teh next episode TCM. Jex was remorsefull and did commit suicide to try and redeem himself. Hioping he would be forgiven in the next life. Shame it cost innocent Issac his life. Rememeber Emma in Hide ?.m She warned Clara the doctor has "ice in his heart". Maybe Clara will see 12 go really dark and cold in S8 and have to try and stop him.

anything other than what he did basically from his point of view (although from our's it was great to see the doc being a little bit evil), as I said, he dosen't usually see it as his place to hold life or death over people, and he could have found some sort of way of incapacitating him from causing trouble in future, or let him go, hoping he'd learned his lesson from the event's of the episode, but keeping an eye on him and stopping him if he ever started trouble again. The worst part was in this instance he did have friend's around him, and yet still acted in that manner.

As for the 'ice in his heart' line, I was also intrigued by this and think it would be cool if he went super dark as capaldi. in a way, despite his everyday manner, I kind of think he's privately been on a darker, more self loathing trajectory, that was starting from water's of mar's onward's and continued throughout smith (solomon, the dreamlord, the girl who waited), so it would be very appropriate for this to continue in the extreme with capaldi.

I thought Day of the Doctor was essentially his redemption from the self-loathing trajectory. Now that he knows that he didn't kill the Time Lords, that they're out there waiting to be found and that he has whole new regeneration cycle ahead of him it would be most logical for him to be the cheeriest, most optimistic and happy Doctor yet!

Which begs the question, what terrible things are the writers going to do to him now to snap him out of it

It's funny, in light of Day of the Doctor, much of Series 7 makes more sense - why there's so many themes of judgement, and punishment, and betrayal and failing to save those close to you.