My point is that Moffats detractors, especially those who throw around the sexism allegation, are often very big fans of Molly and Mary etc. Who Moffat also wrote. Thereby proving Moffat can write a range of female characters.

True, although he is co with Gatiss on Sherlock, isn't he, so it's collaborative.

I don't think portraying a stereotype is sexist, or even bad. Stereotypes are stereotypes because they are commonplace. The reason there is a stereotype of a stay at home housewife who looks after the children is because that was (and, for all I know, still is) hugely common practice. It's not the practice that is wrong it's the implication that women shouldn't try being anything else.

BIB: I agree that a character without flaws is a fantasy but I don't see the connection to object. It's a fantasy programme, the Doctor is clearly a fantasy character, why shouldn't the companion be?

Besides, there seem to be a lot of people who consider the fiestiness/mouthiness/bossiness etc. etc. as flaws. You can't have it both ways

Personally, I don't have a problem with a family programme portraying its protagonists as flawless fantasy super-heroes. The Doctor and his companions tend to be role-models to kids. If you're going to introduce a negative quality you're going to have to be very careful to show that it's wrong and for the kids not to try to emulate it.


It's true I didn't realise that women found sassiness to be particularly objectionable. I don't get why they would though. I also don't get what's wrong with saying "At least Rory isn't a hairy wifebeater"

A positive characteristic is a positive characteristic, I don't see why it should suddenly become something to be avoided just because men happen to like it?


I wouldn't know, personally, but I got the impression that the men on the show have not been entirely without female admirers amongst the viewers

Let's not forget the Doctor, in all this. He's neither portrayed as a weak character nor an emasculated character. He's the central protagonist and the main hero. That's precisely why his companions need to be the strong feisty types because he needs a foil. They have to at least approach his level otherwise why would the Doctor want them around?

I have no objection with the male companions being eye-candy so I fail to see why women should object to the female characters being eye-candy. As long as that's not all they are.

I do think "over-sexualising" is a bit of an over-statement. Friendly banter is not over-sexualising, nor is a tiny bit of flirting. It's a family show, after all, nobody is dressed up in fetish gear or stockings and suspenders!

We haven't really seen many male companions under Moffat apart from Rory so it's bit unfair to draw any conclusions from his characterisation, IMO. Rory wasn't originally a companion he had to be shy and retiring on the basis that he wasn't going to be accompanying Amy on her adventures. Later it was quite an interesting character arc, precisely because he had to find hidden strengths - which he certainly did in spades.

RTD had Captain Jack and Mickey. Mickey was the same as Rory in that, at first, he wasn't a companion and he was not portrayed in a particularly good light. He too, came good in the end, though.

Captain Jack, obviously was not a weak companion and was certainly not backwards in coming forwards in the sexy department.

In summary, I don't agree that the sassy fiesty female stereotype is in any way, sexist and, separate issue, I don't agree that it is something that needs to be avoided. It has been a staple of Doctor Who companions for as long as I can remember and long may it continue

I think it's probably fair to say that Moffat's female characterisations are limited, if not actually sexist. A lot of that is due the role they need to play in the stories - they have to barrel along faster and with more 'lightness' than something like Sherlock, so will tend to be on the exuberant and flirty side - but some assume that it reveals something about Moffat himself and his attitude to women.

Precisely. Not to mention the fact that they are being selected by the Doctor. The Doctor has a type. He wants companions that challenge him, that don't let him get his own way all the time. He wants companions who are intelligent, resourceful and courageous because, if they weren't they'd be a liability. If he also likes sexy girls with flirty banter I could hardly blame him for that, either!

So, yes, the fact that most of his companions follow the same type is pretty much an inevitability of the role they need to fill.

As for Moffat's attitude towards women, the only thing I can imagine it showing about his attitude is that he has a great deal of admiration and respect for them.

I loved him! We haven't really had a comparable character since. It's all weedy emasculated men (overview of the whole post-2005 era). The Doctor isn't really sexy as such, though maybe he is by default as he takes women around the universe and throughout time in his big ship. But I don't think he's been portrayed like that apart from the TVM, and to be honest, I wouldn't really want that. I'll have to watch Hollyoaks instead

Ah, well, I didn't say that. His companions are as intelligent, resourceful and courageous as the plot demands that they be. They're not always those things, but they are always argumentative and cocky, which is one of the problems people have.

And just to remind everyone, I liked Amy.

I think Amy, River and Clara have been some of the best female characters we've had on the show. As well as Vastra, Jenny and Kate too.

I think "argumentative and cocky" is a subjective valuation. Off the top of my head, the only companion I can think of who I would call argumentative was Tegan and the only one I can think of who was cocky was Adric.

The thing is, argumentative means arguing because you like arguing. Argumentative people do it to enforce their dominance on a situation regardless of how strongly they feel about the argument itself. Sometimes they may argue the opposite of what someone says just becaue they enjoy being contrary. I don't think that's the case at all for Amy and Clara. I think, if they argue with the Doctor, they do so because they passionately believe in the truth of their argument. They're not arguing for the sake of arguing they are standing up for what they believe is right instead of just meekly obeying instructions or accepting something that they believe to be wrong.

Similarly, there is a difference between confident and cocky. The main difference is whether that confidence is misplaced or not. From what I've seen, I don't think it's misplaaced at all. Clara's insistence on being capable of hacking the GI's network in Bells of St John being a case in point.

Clara's better, I think, but there's still an element there. Is it because of their character, or is it because someone needs to argue with the Doctor to force him to give out plot exposition?

That's certainly a valid point. Either you have to ask lots of questions to prompt for exposition or you need to turn the situation into a debate to elicit exposition. I suppose the more intelligent you try to make the companion the more likely you will need the latter method over the former!

Interesting that a somewhat cartoonish, dashing hero sex bomb archetype is such a popular male character among many of the same female viewers who complain about female characters being reduced to one dimensional archetypes. Hmmmmmmmm.

I do find it hilarious how the characteristics that Jack have are praised by certain fans but with River, the same characteristics tend to be criticised.

Bit of a bad double standard really.

Strange isn't it. I've noticed that alot of the fervent anti Moffat ranters are at the same time huge Torchwood fans and pro Captain Jack.

Now don't get me wrong. I love Jack. He is one of my favourite characters since the show returned. Its a bizarre concept but its almost as if I can just...enjoy a fictional character for what he is without taking it as a deliberate sleight of my own masculinity, sense of self and gender. I know. I know. Crazy talk. I should be waving placards around and starting Twitter campaigns to ban such a crude stereotype.

I love Jack too, he's awesome but if those traits are acceptable with him, then it does make me wonder why those fans see them as problematic in River though.

Perhaps try putting it in context. How often are flirty pansexual male characters ever shown on mainstream TV? Now do the same for women. Jack was an interesting unicorn of characterisation. River was just another Moffat Woman.

There have been plenty of flirty, sexually voracious, hunky male hero characters on TV throughout its history. The only 'angle' Jack had was his bisexuality. Apart from that he was another Han Solo/Flash Gordon/Bond archetype albeit one with some growth. Unicorn of characterisation? Oh please. Just shows the double standard.

There have been far fewer River Songs on TV than there have Captain Jacks. Fact. And just another Moffat woman? Excuse me if I fail to see the inherent similarities between Amy Pond, River, Clara, Vastra, Jenny, Molly, Mary,Irene etc. There are plenty of differences.

I think Vastra is one of the most unique characters we've had on the show. I absolutely adore her character and I'm thrilled she's appearing in Series 8. Plus I do like that her relationship with Jenny comes across as quite loving, protective and fun too.

and despite being something of a fearsome warrior she is a million miles away from sassy River and her wisecracking. And there is no tokenism in her relationship with Jenny. No big flashing neon sign. It just is what it is.

as opposed to early Torchwood for instance which was all a bit HEY GUYS! Over here! Yep this way! Check it out! Their kissing men! But then their kissing women! Bisexuality! Yes Bisexuality! On a Doctor Who related show! Can anyone spell EDGY? We can!

Not really. Only if you stereotype "certain fans" in a certain (negative, they all think the same) way. We're not all black and white you know! I don't think Jack's really a standard trope in the way that River is (Mrs Robinson/MILF blah blah blah) - I liked Jack very much when he first appeared as he was a new take on a cartoonish pinup hero character although tbf I did find the constantly horny thing beginning to grate after a while, and again, he started getting a bit stereotyped. But maybe that's just me. (Or John Barrowman )

To be honest, I'm not mortally offended by Moffat's characters - of which Jack is one, of course - but I DID notice the Another Moffat Woman thing. Sorry if some of you guys can't see it, but there you have it. As ladyxanax says - male gaze. (plus the Moff smugness). So I can see why a lot of female viewers pick up on it. It's a thing, that's all, a perspective. No doubt there are male viewers who pick up on issues about male representation that'd pass me by...

For what it's worth, it strikes me that Moff's trying NOT to be sexist with all his feisty women, it's just it comes across as a bit cack-handed at times.

Totally agree about Vastra and Jenny though. I do like them - and Strax as well. I'm glad it looks like we'll be seeing more of the Paternoster gang.

Is it wrong that I was male gazing at todays spoiler footage of season 8 of Jenna.


Sorry, just been waiting for a chance to use the phrase male gazing in a real sentence.

LOL, no, not at all - but you do know it can only be used as a noun. As in "Today, The_Judge exercised The Male Gaze in his appreciation of Jenna in footage of series 8."

Similarly, today, laurielou exercised The Female Gaze in her appreciation of the now-departed Matt Smith, whom, despite her frequent slagging-off of the Moff era, she has realised she is massively going to miss. She's a bit like that, though. Capricious. Sniff.

Basically guys. If you have a penis. You are not welcome to the debate because MALE GAZE. Well what's the point of even discussing it then?

And I'm sorry but the broad shouldered, cheeky, twinkle in the eye, sex mad, chiselled jaw adventure hero is far more a worn out trope than a female equivalent. I would love to hear some one list all the other 'River Songs' that have saturated popular culture in recent years...

Of course it depends how you want to view it. Whatever your gender. Should every character have to stand as a role model or a totem for their gender/race/sexuality etc or can they just be characters in their own right with all the usual foibles and problems that any human has? Why should River be seen as a representation of real women or expected to work as such in the same way as Jack should have to represent a man or a bisexual? They are both essentially cartoon characters...comic book superheroes and as such their respective characteristics are emphasised. Part of that will include recognisable tropes or even stereotyping. In other ways they break the mould.

Just repeating this meaningless phrase 'another Moffat woman' doesn't answer the question. As has been pointed out Moffat has over the years written many different types of female characters as he has male characters. This idea of a Moffat Female Archetype is a myth.

Where are all the people complaining about the slightly screechy working class 'going nowhere until a male character shows them the way' white female stereotype that RTD used at least three times in his era? Why is that not problematic?

As Wilf said himself ' She was better with you'. He even begs the Doctor to try and take her back again and break up another relationship/marriage because well those poor girls...theyre just nothing without their Doctor. Meanwhile Amy Pond ditches him through her own choice, River runs rings around him most of the time and Clara saves his life. Not because she was born to do it. Because she wanted to. And Moffats the sexist?

and saying RTD cant be guilty of being influenced by the Male Gaze and stereotyping of females because he is gay is a false argument. He proved himself to be just as capable.

Annalise anyone?

lol, well I'm glad we can all exercise our gaze once in a while (!), and as far as the future goes

http://25.media.tumblr.com/ec4f5517b...5btlo1_500.png

Gah! OK, you win on the Gaze front in that pic. But although my Female Gaze will prob not be as involved in future - I still can't wait to see Capaldi in action, can you? Can anyone? Exciting...