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Karen Gillan: Moffat's Writing Not Sexist
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The_Judge_
26-02-2014
Originally Posted by laurielou:
“Gah! OK, you win on the Gaze front in that pic. But although my Female Gaze will prob not be as involved in future - I still can't wait to see Capaldi in action, can you? Can anyone? Exciting...”

Time waits for no man


Oh wait, time waits for no err generic non-racist non-sexist individual or consensual pairing human, animal, alien, paranormal, living, once was living living trying their best to be living..........
lady_xanax
27-02-2014
Originally Posted by laurielou:
“For what it's worth, it strikes me that Moff's trying NOT to be sexist with all his feisty women, it's just it comes across as a bit cack-handed at times.”

This really. Of course it's nice to have women in important roles but they have to have this amazing important destiny whereas the blokes do nothing. And I know it's partly the prevalence and popularity of female companions as opposed to male ones but they could still have some interesting male characters. Having Captain Jack didn't make us think the Doctor was less important or powerful. It just starts to look suspiciously like a personal fantasy when all the male characters are emasculated and you have this central male (yep, he's culturally male and heterosexual as far as I'm aware) surrounded by all these powerful women who gravitate around him. Maybe the sci-fi aspect and the lack of central female characters does assuage that but if it was a normal Planet Earth show, would you not stop and think "Someone's indulging a bit of fantasy here"?
Shawn_Lunn
27-02-2014
What about Mickey? Did he have a destiny compared to Rose's bad Wolf plotline or Donna's two way metacrisis with the Doctor?

It wasn't just Moffat who focuses/d more on the female companions having a higher purpose/destiny thing. So did RTD to a degree.
Jumbobones
27-02-2014
she's dull as flip and a banal disgrace to women
Shawn_Lunn
27-02-2014
Originally Posted by Jumbobones:
“she's dull as flip and a banal disgrace to women”

Er, no she isn't.
Michael_Eve
27-02-2014
Originally Posted by Jumbobones:
“she's dull as flip and a banal disgrace to women”

I hope you don't mean Karen! She's nice.

Sorry, do you mean River or Rose or....
Jumbobones
27-02-2014
Sorry wrong thread
lady_xanax
28-02-2014
Originally Posted by Shawn_Lunn:
“What about Mickey? Did he have a destiny compared to Rose's bad Wolf plotline or Donna's two way metacrisis with the Doctor?

It wasn't just Moffat who focuses/d more on the female companions having a higher purpose/destiny thing. So did RTD to a degree.”

I'm not saying that RTD didn't but you did have a prominent male figure in Jack, and the females destinies' aren't so inextricably linked with the Doctor's.
Shawn_Lunn
28-02-2014
Originally Posted by lady_xanax:
“I'm not saying that RTD didn't but you did have a prominent male figure in Jack, and the females destinies' aren't so inextricably linked with the Doctor's.”

Excluding Torchwood, we only had Jack for 11 episodes. Rory we had for 27 episodes and he did become more prominent as he progressed on the show.

Rose and Donna's destinies most definitely were connected with the Doctor. The former absorbed the Time Vortex and defeated the Daleks/Emperor and then inadvertantly caused Nine to regenerate into Ten and Donna was involved in that whole two way metacrisis as well with Ten. IMO, they were as linked with the Doctor's destinies as Amy, River and Clara have been to a degree.
saladfingers81
28-02-2014
Originally Posted by Shawn_Lunn:
“Excluding Torchwood, we only had Jack for 11 episodes. Rory we had for 27 episodes and he did become more prominent as he progressed on the show.

Rose and Donna's destinies most definitely were connected with the Doctor. The former absorbed the Time Vortex and defeated the Daleks/Emperor and then inadvertantly caused Nine to regenerate into Ten and Donna was involved in that whole two way metacrisis as well with Ten. IMO, they were as linked with the Doctor's destinies as Amy, River and Clara have been to a degree.”

more so. In the end Donna wasn't even an individual. Doctor/Donna. And Rose? Well she was entirely defined by the Doctor.

Amy Pond had a childhood dominated by this mythical Doctor. But in the end she grew out of him and led a life of her own. The evidence is all there. The trust and myth was broken in The God Complex and Amys final line was so obviously a confirmation of this. She says goodbye to the Raggedy Man. And in doing so she grows up. She chooses Rory. She chose to let go of this childhood hero and have a real life with Rory. Hardly being defined by the Doctor. And yet poor Rose just sulked and sulked and split universes apart just to get back her precious Doctor and then accepts a carbon copy. As far as we know shes never moved on.

It seems some people just pick and choose what they see to fit their own bizarre agendas.
Shawn_Lunn
28-02-2014
Nicely put, saladfingers.
lady_xanax
01-03-2014
I think personal preference plays a big part. For me, I didn't buy Rory as an interesting enough alternative to travelling around in space, therefore perceived Amy as having less of a real choice. Either way, she's attached to a particular person. I think because culturally the happily-ever-after is seen as a female desire, some viewers would view it as sexist; the assumption being that were the character male, they wouldn't have to make that decision. Of course, we don't know whether Moffat would have used the same quandary if it had been a male companion; to me that would have been more interesting.

The blokes in the RTD era aren't really portrayed as a serious alternative to the Doctor; the companion's dilemma was more about family ties. As a culturally universal thing, I found that more identifiable, which seemed to be the thing about the RTD era. Of course the show has moved on and it hasn't needed to provide as much that we can identify with because it has its audience. I think now with its popularity, people expect a bigger scale anyway. But to an extent, the viewer needs to identify with the companion, where in New Who they seem fixed as human. Maybe it was done a bit simplistically by RTD with Rose's working class background and family history, but Moffat's characters seem to lack identifiability. Obviously you're not going to identify with travelling through time to save an alien but the human aspects don't feel as identifiable to me. Because people will superficially latch on to characters which resemble themselves- their sex, race, class, etc.- the portrayal of those characters is going to feel important to them.

What I liked about the TVM was that you had a successful female character with concrete achievements in the human world. She was spirited and had a sense of humour without being a sassy quipster. As such she was much more identifiable; a bit irritating at times maybe but identifiable.
saladfingers81
02-03-2014
Originally Posted by lady_xanax:
“I think personal preference plays a big part. For me, I didn't buy Rory as an interesting enough alternative to travelling around in space, therefore perceived Amy as having less of a real choice. Either way, she's attached to a particular person. I think because culturally the happily-ever-after is seen as a female desire, some viewers would view it as sexist; the assumption being that were the character male, they wouldn't have to make that decision. Of course, we don't know whether Moffat would have used the same quandary if it had been a male companion; to me that would have been more interesting.

The blokes in the RTD era aren't really portrayed as a serious alternative to the Doctor; the companion's dilemma was more about family ties. As a culturally universal thing, I found that more identifiable, which seemed to be the thing about the RTD era. Of course the show has moved on and it hasn't needed to provide as much that we can identify with because it has its audience. I think now with its popularity, people expect a bigger scale anyway. But to an extent, the viewer needs to identify with the companion, where in New Who they seem fixed as human. Maybe it was done a bit simplistically by RTD with Rose's working class background and family history, but Moffat's characters seem to lack identifiability. Obviously you're not going to identify with travelling through time to save an alien but the human aspects don't feel as identifiable to me. Because people will superficially latch on to characters which resemble themselves- their sex, race, class, etc.- the portrayal of those characters is going to feel important to them.

What I liked about the TVM was that you had a successful female character with concrete achievements in the human world. She was spirited and had a sense of humour without being a sassy quipster. As such she was much more identifiable; a bit irritating at times maybe but identifiable.”

Trust me. Rory is an identifiable male character. Captain Jack not so much. The fact you choose to reduce Rory to little more than an emasculated sap says more about your view of him and less about Moffats writing.

Clara is a teacher. She is successfull in her own right. A match for the Doctor. Compare this to poor hapless Donna who is an abject 'failure' as presented in the show until she meets the Doctor. He makes her 'somebody', then takes it away. Oh and then when he pops back and shes carrying on with her life and has a new relationship her own Grandad begs the Doctor to 'take her back'. Instead he gives her a winning lottery ticket. Now that's Empowerment. Lol. Oh and for some inexplicable reason borrows the money from her dead father. Erm why?!?! Oh yes. 'Feels'.

I think it was you who complained about Moffats females being defined by their relationship to the Doctor. What you mean like Sarah JS who basically never really recovered from his abandonment? Like the way RTD basically wrote it into the SJA that all those former companions were carrying on the fight in the name of the man who ditched them? Like Rose? Like Martha whose entire life was forever derailed by her involvement with the Doctor.

Or are we talking about Amy. Who made a choice. To live her own life and make her own success? And you object to this because you personally cant understand why she would choose poor Rory over the Doctor? Is someone letting their 'female gaze' influence their thinking?
The_Judge_
02-03-2014
Anyone else read the theory that Clara "represents" the actual show, i. e. Clara IS the show.

"This is an interesting one. Eagle-eyed fans have noticed striking similarities between Clara’s lives and that of the actual show. Victorian Clara, for instance, is born on November 23, the date that the first episode of Doctor Who was broadcast; the modern day Clara is born in 1989, the year Doctor Who’s classic run ends (Victorian Clara is also the same age as the classic series, 26, when she dies); and her mother dies March 2005: the month Doctor Who is brought back. "
Sara_Peplow
02-03-2014
Both Pond girls/women becanme martyrs to their marriages. Both even said the same thing in TATM "It's called marriage". Rory said he would do anything for Amy and I believed him.
They got a happy ending kind of.
joe_000
02-03-2014
Never really believed the whole Amy / Rory /River storyline or characters. Don't know if it was the rubbish writing or acting.
Lord Melbury
02-03-2014
Always really believed the whole Amy / Rory /River storyline & characters. Don't know if it was the brilliant writing, acting or both.
Sara_Peplow
02-03-2014
There were some really good moments between the family and the married couples that were really touching.
joe_000
02-03-2014
Nice to see how people respect others opinions. 😃
GDK
02-03-2014
Originally Posted by joe_000:
“Nice to see how people respect others opinions. 😃”

Well, as far as opinions go, I'm with Dirty Harry.

Why not try backing up your opinion with some supporting evidence? That way some opinions might earn respect.

It's a radical thought, I know!
saladfingers81
02-03-2014
Originally Posted by GDK:
“Well, as far as opinions go, I'm with Dirty Harry.

Why not try backing up your opinion with some supporting evidence? That way some opinions might earn respect.

It's a radical thought, I know! ”

Exactly! Just an opinion isn't job done. Its how and why you got there that is interesting. So just stating X and Y is shite doesn't really help much. Why!
lady_xanax
02-03-2014
Originally Posted by saladfingers81:
“Or are we talking about Amy. Who made a choice. To live her own life and make her own success? And you object to this because you personally cant understand why she would choose poor Rory over the Doctor? Is someone letting their 'female gaze' influence their thinking?”

Well, no because I don't find Matt Smith attractive either. Alas, there is nothing for my female gaze to appreciate The 'gaze' (I love that word!) is sexual, voyeuristic. Hollyoaks has a plethora of female gaze examples.
The_Judge_
02-03-2014
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/12/moffats-women-amy-pond
lady_xanax
03-03-2014
Originally Posted by The_Judge_:
“http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/12/moffats-women-amy-pond”

Interesting points, though I disagree that Gillan has any depth as an actress. Her acting skills are fine for what the show is- light family entertainment- but that's it.
Sara_Peplow
03-03-2014
There were a few dark moments too. She was abducted and violated. Left barren at 22. Amy also missed most of her daugthers life. Finally having to leave her and her best friend behind. Suppose now the new doctor is Scottish part of Amy will influence this regeneration.
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