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Old 05-03-2014, 13:43
patsylimerick
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I've noticed that those (correctly) criticising Hayley's presence in the final of an ice-dancing competition - given that she can't skate - routinely concede that she always gives a good performance. I find this baffling.

I had to pull the television away from the wall last weekend when she was dressed in the white knickers to let the syrup and cheese flow down the wall. It had overloaded.

How do people equate this open-mouthed gurning and rictus-inducing fake-smiling with 'performance skills'?

Hayley's a 'good performer' in much the same way as my over-enthusiastic six year old made a wonderful sheep in last year's Christmas play.

Y'all need to go and watch some real performances.
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Old 05-03-2014, 14:58
TraceyUK
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I've noticed that those (correctly) criticising Hayley's presence in the final of an ice-dancing competition - given that she can't skate - routinely concede that she always gives a good performance. I find this baffling.

I had to pull the television away from the wall last weekend when she was dressed in the white knickers to let the syrup and cheese flow down the wall. It had overloaded.

How do people equate this open-mouthed gurning and rictus-inducing fake-smiling with 'performance skills'?

Hayley's a 'good performer' in much the same way as my over-enthusiastic six year old made a wonderful sheep in last year's Christmas play.

Y'all need to go and watch some real performances.
Well said
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Old 05-03-2014, 15:07
CaroUK
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Thirded!

never did see why frantic arm waving, cheesy grins an dancing madly on toepicks in one place equals great performing.

i much prefer the less manic presentation of Ray and Beth which they both combine with lots of SKATING!

Dear Ice panel - please put on your specs and actually SEE whats in front of your eyes - or maybe you need to get some goggles which allow you to see through the smoke and mirrors of Hayley's performances.

Take away the OTT showmanship - and there is nothing there to rate! Her "dancing on ice" is so minimal that she might as well be standing on a floor... Ray and Beth actually do dancing on ice - with lots of skating moves - Hayley doesn't!
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Old 05-03-2014, 15:36
yellowlabbie
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I've noticed that those (correctly) criticising Hayley's presence in the final of an ice-dancing competition - given that she can't skate - routinely concede that she always gives a good performance. I find this baffling.

I had to pull the television away from the wall last weekend when she was dressed in the white knickers to let the syrup and cheese flow down the wall. It had overloaded.

How do people equate this open-mouthed gurning and rictus-inducing fake-smiling with 'performance skills'?

Hayley's a 'good performer' in much the same way as my over-enthusiastic six year old made a wonderful sheep in last year's Christmas play.

Y'all need to go and watch some real performances.
Maybe so patsy but the average viewer only know what they see, they don't know about the technical stuff, so they vote for the performance and I'm afraid Hayley does give a good performance according to a few people I have spoken to anyway.
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Old 05-03-2014, 15:46
Melody.ExE
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I don't appreciate Hayley's 'performance' either, and I don't think the word 'subtle' is in her vocabulary.

But that's what Theatre is, isn't it? When most people watching are so far away, you have to exaggerate every move, and every facial expression, and that's what Hayley would have been taught to do all through her stage school. As much as I'm in the 'anyone but Hayley to win' camp, she's getting the results she's after, so she must be doing something right.
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Old 05-03-2014, 16:04
Vodka_Drinka
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Hayley's performance skills seems consist of little more than jazz hands and gurning...,
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Old 05-03-2014, 16:10
Sandra Bee
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Do we really need another Hayley bashing thread? There are plenty of others to choose from.
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Old 05-03-2014, 16:13
kaycee
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Clearly a lot of people must disagree with this thread because - unless I'm mistaken - she has never landed in the skate off, and, has already been proven, being high on the leaderboard after the judges scores is not enough to keep a celeb out of the bottom 2.
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Old 05-03-2014, 16:22
thenetworkbabe
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I've noticed that those (correctly) criticising Hayley's presence in the final of an ice-dancing competition - given that she can't skate - routinely concede that she always gives a good performance. I find this baffling.

I had to pull the television away from the wall last weekend when she was dressed in the white knickers to let the syrup and cheese flow down the wall. It had overloaded.

How do people equate this open-mouthed gurning and rictus-inducing fake-smiling with 'performance skills'?

Hayley's a 'good performer' in much the same way as my over-enthusiastic six year old made a wonderful sheep in last year's Christmas play.

Y'all need to go and watch some real performances.
One of the major problems is that no one on the judging team is qualified to mark acting, and that adds to the other issues that no one marks the entire performance for wow factor, and they do mark the routine - not the performance or its difficulty. Robin's acting isn't great. Karen and Ashley don't act - Emma was better qualified to mark that than any of them. Jason is a dancer who was a dance captain - not a major director, or a lead actor. He comments on dancing minutiae - which he is qualified to do - but his forays into judging acting have no more merit than anyone elses. The show actually recognised that poroblem by adding Ruthie, but people didn't like someone who knew acting telling them who wasn't that good.

Performance skills are difficult to asses though. . Some work better in different settings. People trained to work on stage sometimes look right to rows N and Z - but OTT on a camera close up. Some roles can be played OTT, some require it. Some people play one character all their career - others play themselves every job. - it works if it fits the role. Performance also covers dance skills and style - and Hayley is a trained dancer who you might expect to do well there. It may be cheesy, but its precise too. On DOI it depends on what the routine is - and what acting it leads to, and whether you like the outcome. Hayley tends to get routines that work for most people, and her acting range.

My bigger problem is that Hayley tends to get few roles - OTT American (As last week and in her Charleston) and romantic lead ( where she does silent film star) She then gets marks thrown at her for distinctive characters she can do - with lots of similar dance steps and a very few simple tricks and lifts. Bonnie, or Suzanne could do the same routines/play the same roles as well or better, and might be able to do more roles, and tricks,given the chance. I've seen all three act on stage, two in the same role, and Hayley wasn't the one who was doing the subtler tones. Zaraah and Jorgie might have been able to manage them too. No one else but Hayley got those routines.

That leads to problems two, three, and four. Because Hayley has the strong dance routine she can act ,somone else gets the more difficult, less well choregraphed, numbers ,and new moves. They then have to concentrate on mastering the difficulty. Hayley however stays in her comfort zone and can concentrate on her acting.

I think she does what she does pretty well. You just can't mark it so highly by ignoring difficulty, or disadvantage all the competition by not tailoring things as well to their strengths, by giving them much more to learn, and by never giving them routines like hers.
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Old 05-03-2014, 16:31
memmh
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Hayley's performance skills are way over the top, perhaps in order to hide the fact that she can't actually skate very well. She's one of the weakest skaters in this year's competition, certainly the weakest of the former champions. Regardless of what Jason says, Hayley is most definitely NOT the complete package. She's all style and no substance. Her routines are all jazz hands and not much skating content. Not to mention she rarely lets go of Dan to skate unassisted.

She's also the only one who has consistently been given routines designed to play to her strengths instead of challenging and stretching her, whereas Bonnie, Suzanne, Sam, Kyran and Beth all had to struggle with routines that didn't suit them in the slightest. Perhaps if Hayley had been given a different partner this year, it might have been better for her.

Beth has done much better with Luk than Dan. The problem is that while Dan is a nice guy, he always seems to make his partners very dependent on him. When he was paired with Linda Lusardi and Emily Symons, both of them hated not to be in hold with him, even if, as Jayne, Chris and Karen said with both of them, they were only holding one finger. Hayley is a better skater than either of them were but she's still very dependent on Dan. Beth and Suzanne (although Suzanne was the right elimination that week, given that she messed up the skate off) are both far better skaters than Hayley but aren't given credit for it. I think Gaynor Faye also, when I saw her on the tour, was far better with Matt than Dan. She was certainly more confident than Hayley, given that her routines with Matt had quite a lot of skating out of hold.

There's seems to be a lot of bias towards Hayley and against Beth from the judges and for the life of me, I can't understand it. There's always some bias from the judges but this year it's been overly blatant. I'm glad the final is scored solely on the public vote. I rather Beth will be out first, unfortunately, but I hope that Ray will win. I'm not an enormous fan of him but he's so good (he really is the complete package!) that I would actually be disappointed if he didn't win.
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Old 05-03-2014, 16:34
thenetworkbabe
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I don't appreciate Hayley's 'performance' either, and I don't think the word 'subtle' is in her vocabulary.

But that's what Theatre is, isn't it? When most people watching are so far away, you have to exaggerate every move, and every facial expression, and that's what Hayley would have been taught to do all through her stage school. As much as I'm in the 'anyone but Hayley to win' camp, she's getting the results she's after, so she must be doing something right.
The best people work from row AA to Z, and move effortlessly between TV stage and film.As you say some people just look wrong, sometimes for not very obvious reasons . I have seen one person who was adored by the audience of one of the biggest theatres throughout a massive run, couldn't connect or get votes on TV , but looks absolutely fine from 3 feet away in a small theatre.

DOI has a problem with poor camera work too - that doesn't help - particularly if the routine hasn't been rehearsed for the camera. Look at Suzanne's routine she couldn't do the dress rehearsal for, and several of the skate off routines where people were acting their socks off in the usual places - while the camera was aimlessly pointed elsewhere.
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Old 05-03-2014, 16:39
JamieHT
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One of the major problems is that no one on the judging team is qualified to mark acting, and that adds to the other issues that no one marks the entire performance for wow factor, and they do mark the routine - not the performance or its difficulty. Robin's acting isn't great. Karen and Ashley don't act - Emma was better qualified to mark that than any of them. Jason is a dancer who was a dance captain - not a major director, or a lead actor. He comments on dancing minutiae - which he is qualified to do - but his forays into judging acting have no more merit than anyone elses. The show actually recognised that poroblem by adding Ruthie, but people didn't like someone who knew acting telling them who wasn't that good.

Performance skills are difficult to asses though. . Some work better in different settings. People trained to work on stage sometimes look right to rows N and Z - but OTT on a camera close up. Some roles can be played OTT, some require it. Some people play one character all their career - others play themselves every job. - it works if it fits the role. Performance also covers dance skills and style - and Hayley is a trained dancer who you might expect to do well there. It may be cheesy, but its precise too. On DOI it depends on what the routine is - and what acting it leads to, and whether you like the outcome. Hayley tends to get routines that work for most people, and her acting range.

My bigger problem is that Hayley tends to get few roles - OTT American (As last week and in her Charleston) and romantic lead ( where she does silent film star) She then gets marks thrown at her for distinctive characters she can do - with lots of similar dance steps and a very few simple tricks and lifts. Bonnie, or Suzanne could do the same routines/play the same roles as well or better, and might be able to do more roles, and tricks,given the chance. I've seen all three act on stage, two in the same role, and Hayley wasn't the one who was doing the subtler tones. Zaraah and Jorgie might have been able to manage them too. No one else but Hayley got those routines.

That leads to problems two, three, and four. Because Hayley has the strong dance routine she can act ,somone else gets the more difficult, less well choregraphed, numbers ,and new moves. They then have to concentrate on mastering the difficulty. Hayley however stays in her comfort zone and can concentrate on her acting.

I think she does what she does pretty well. You just can't mark it so highly by ignoring difficulty, or disadvantage all the competition by not tailoring things as well to their strengths, by giving them much more to learn, and by never giving them routines like hers.
You mention Bonnie who is much more famous than Hayley for being on stage. I never thought that Bonnie was over the top when performing on the ice.
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Old 05-03-2014, 17:14
tabithakitten
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Hayley does nothing for me - I find her OTT. However, she clearly gives a performance whether it's to one's taste or not. She isn't bland or stilted and knows how to captivate those who like her style.

I've given up trying to understand why people do like her style because I know it's never going to appeal to me and I'm on a hiding to nothing. I don't think anyone can learn to understand something that is so completely down to personal preference. Still baffles me that there are obviously many people out there that love the way she performs so much that they're prepared to overlook an obvious lack of skating skill though .
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Old 05-03-2014, 17:28
E05297535
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I've noticed that those (correctly) criticising Hayley's presence in the final of an ice-dancing competition - given that she can't skate - routinely concede that she always gives a good performance. I find this baffling.

I had to pull the television away from the wall last weekend when she was dressed in the white knickers to let the syrup and cheese flow down the wall. It had overloaded.

How do people equate this open-mouthed gurning and rictus-inducing fake-smiling with 'performance skills'?

Hayley's a 'good performer' in much the same way as my over-enthusiastic six year old made a wonderful sheep in last year's Christmas play.

Y'all need to go and watch some real performances.
And yet she through to the final with the aforementioned 'arm waving and gurning' she does every weekend. .......oh the irony

Dont let it upset you too much.......win or lose Hayley has achieved what she wanted to do for a while and shes loving it too!!!!
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Old 05-03-2014, 18:20
Amber505
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It totally depends on what you want to see I suppose. For me, I think Hayley always plays a good character (obviously this is because of what is given to her, but she does what she does very well). Some people prefer Beth, but I personally find her very wooden to watch, no matter how good her skating ability is.
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Old 05-03-2014, 18:27
thenetworkbabe
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You mention Bonnie who is much more famous than Hayley for being on stage. I never thought that Bonnie was over the top when performing on the ice.
Bonnie can do OTT. But she often does parody of Bonnie being OTT, She can play a whole range of other emotions too - from funny to sad - and in multiple foreign identities.. She's also better at grabbing the audience by walking through the 4th wall and connecting to them - before dropping back into role - her Roxie is pretty unique in Chicago. I think she's still stuck with the Elizabeth Bott reaction though with people who haven't seen her since. Suzanne is pretty good too - her Roxie was very likeable - with just a twinkle of the eye or two revealing the inner psychopath.
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Old 05-03-2014, 19:26
patsylimerick
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And yet she through to the final with the aforementioned 'arm waving and gurning' she does every weekend. .......oh the irony

Dont let it upset you too much.......win or lose Hayley has achieved what she wanted to do for a while and shes loving it too!!!!
Irony? What 'irony'? Are you sure that's the word you wanted?
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Old 05-03-2014, 19:35
patsylimerick
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Hayley does nothing for me - I find her OTT. However, she clearly gives a performance whether it's to one's taste or not. She isn't bland or stilted and knows how to captivate those who like her style.

I've given up trying to understand why people do like her style because I know it's never going to appeal to me and I'm on a hiding to nothing. I don't think anyone can learn to understand something that is so completely down to personal preference. Still baffles me that there are obviously many people out there that love the way she performs so much that they're prepared to overlook an obvious lack of skating skill though .
This pretty much sums up where I'm at. I find her performance standards embarrassingly bad and OTT. Your last sentence is the interesting part - it's like collective blindness. I prefer Beth as a person to Ray, but I think Ray should win because he's a lot more comfortable on the ice.
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Old 05-03-2014, 19:38
patsylimerick
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One of the major problems is that no one on the judging team is qualified to mark acting, and that adds to the other issues that no one marks the entire performance for wow factor, and they do mark the routine - not the performance or its difficulty. Robin's acting isn't great. Karen and Ashley don't act - Emma was better qualified to mark that than any of them. Jason is a dancer who was a dance captain - not a major director, or a lead actor. He comments on dancing minutiae - which he is qualified to do - but his forays into judging acting have no more merit than anyone elses. The show actually recognised that poroblem by adding Ruthie, but people didn't like someone who knew acting telling them who wasn't that good.

Performance skills are difficult to asses though. . Some work better in different settings. People trained to work on stage sometimes look right to rows N and Z - but OTT on a camera close up. Some roles can be played OTT, some require it. Some people play one character all their career - others play themselves every job. - it works if it fits the role. Performance also covers dance skills and style - and Hayley is a trained dancer who you might expect to do well there. It may be cheesy, but its precise too. On DOI it depends on what the routine is - and what acting it leads to, and whether you like the outcome. Hayley tends to get routines that work for most people, and her acting range.

My bigger problem is that Hayley tends to get few roles - OTT American (As last week and in her Charleston) and romantic lead ( where she does silent film star) She then gets marks thrown at her for distinctive characters she can do - with lots of similar dance steps and a very few simple tricks and lifts. Bonnie, or Suzanne could do the same routines/play the same roles as well or better, and might be able to do more roles, and tricks,given the chance. I've seen all three act on stage, two in the same role, and Hayley wasn't the one who was doing the subtler tones. Zaraah and Jorgie might have been able to manage them too. No one else but Hayley got those routines.

That leads to problems two, three, and four. Because Hayley has the strong dance routine she can act ,somone else gets the more difficult, less well choregraphed, numbers ,and new moves. They then have to concentrate on mastering the difficulty. Hayley however stays in her comfort zone and can concentrate on her acting.

I think she does what she does pretty well. You just can't mark it so highly by ignoring difficulty, or disadvantage all the competition by not tailoring things as well to their strengths, by giving them much more to learn, and by never giving them routines like hers.
Excellent post. The roles she gets on DOI
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Old 05-03-2014, 19:41
patsylimerick
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One of the major problems is that no one on the judging team is qualified to mark acting, and that adds to the other issues that no one marks the entire performance for wow factor, and they do mark the routine - not the performance or its difficulty. Robin's acting isn't great. Karen and Ashley don't act - Emma was better qualified to mark that than any of them. Jason is a dancer who was a dance captain - not a major director, or a lead actor. He comments on dancing minutiae - which he is qualified to do - but his forays into judging acting have no more merit than anyone elses. The show actually recognised that poroblem by adding Ruthie, but people didn't like someone who knew acting telling them who wasn't that good.

Performance skills are difficult to asses though. . Some work better in different settings. People trained to work on stage sometimes look right to rows N and Z - but OTT on a camera close up. Some roles can be played OTT, some require it. Some people play one character all their career - others play themselves every job. - it works if it fits the role. Performance also covers dance skills and style - and Hayley is a trained dancer who you might expect to do well there. It may be cheesy, but its precise too. On DOI it depends on what the routine is - and what acting it leads to, and whether you like the outcome. Hayley tends to get routines that work for most people, and her acting range.

My bigger problem is that Hayley tends to get few roles - OTT American (As last week and in her Charleston) and romantic lead ( where she does silent film star) She then gets marks thrown at her for distinctive characters she can do - with lots of similar dance steps and a very few simple tricks and lifts. Bonnie, or Suzanne could do the same routines/play the same roles as well or better, and might be able to do more roles, and tricks,given the chance. I've seen all three act on stage, two in the same role, and Hayley wasn't the one who was doing the subtler tones. Zaraah and Jorgie might have been able to manage them too. No one else but Hayley got those routines.

That leads to problems two, three, and four. Because Hayley has the strong dance routine she can act ,somone else gets the more difficult, less well choregraphed, numbers ,and new moves. They then have to concentrate on mastering the difficulty. Hayley however stays in her comfort zone and can concentrate on her acting.

I think she does what she does pretty well. You just can't mark it so highly by ignoring difficulty, or disadvantage all the competition by not tailoring things as well to their strengths, by giving them much more to learn, and by never giving them routines like hers.
Excellent post. I agree that the roles Hayley's being given on DOI are very samey and repetitive. It's also quite remarkable how little (apart from Robin, occasionally) the judges comment on her limited technical ability. They also completely ignore this in the marking.

As said above, I accept that the OTT gurning appeals to some. I just can't fathom it out.
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Old 05-03-2014, 20:40
Bandita
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Excellent post. I agree that the roles Hayley's being given on DOI are very samey and repetitive. It's also quite remarkable how little (apart from Robin, occasionally) the judges comment on her limited technical ability. They also completely ignore this in the marking.

As said above, I accept that the OTT gurning appeals to some. I just can't fathom it out.
It's quite baffling to me the gurning and arm waving it's just not appealing to me and she seems to me to do more or less the same 'dance' every time, added to this her skating skills appear very basic.
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Old 05-03-2014, 21:27
Patti-Ann
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It's quite baffling to me the gurning and arm waving it's just not appealing to me and she seems to me to do more or less the same 'dance' every time, added to this her skating skills appear very basic.
I feel like that. It's like similar dancing and similar lifts - just a different costume and different music.
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Old 05-03-2014, 23:22
Tissy
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I feel like that. It's like similar dancing and similar lifts - just a different costume and different music.
Very true and no 'wow' moves or lifts.
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Old 05-03-2014, 23:29
slappers r us
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Hayley's performance skills are on par with skills performed by most dance school kids

they tend to over perform facial expressions and armography either because they are on a big stage or to distract from footwork

every time I watch Hayley she reminds me of the overachievers in my daughters dance school
all hands, arms and teeth but nothing much else

I can see her being popular with the same kind of people who love dance school competitions
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Old 06-03-2014, 03:50
Patti-Ann
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Hayley does have OTT presentation skills - Bonnie too on a lesser level. I find Hayley irritating but not Bonnie, which is strange. However not all 'stage school kids' are like that as Ray was also at performing arts college prior to X Factor and his presentation is nothing like Hayley's
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