Just rewatching on BBC3. What a splendid two parter this is. Yes it does somewhat dilute the purity of the Angels original conceit bur so what when its this well done. Perfectly paced. Brilliantly acted. The script just sizzles wonderfully and seems rather straight faced and serious compared to latter Moffat episodes. Very little quipping. And all the better for it. This shows just how good two parters can be- it has a genuine movie feel to it as well.
The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone repeat
Whilst I like love the episode overall, as it was well paced, a good premise, and the first one of matt's doctor that really resonated with me, the thing that makes me sad about it is that by using the crack as the resolution, the potential for it as a classic stand alone story was ruined. What I mean by this is that you couldn't just whip out this story in 20 years and show it to someone without explaining to them the whole arc of that series.
Also I tie myself up in knots trying to figure out how in river's timeline, she can be in the crack's universe having already experienced the event's of the pandorica story.
Another confusing point is that if history in the rebooted universe is the same as the old universe (minus cracks obviously) then how, in this universe, does history say he defeated the angels?
Also I tie myself up in knots trying to figure out how in river's timeline, she can be in the crack's universe having already experienced the event's of the pandorica story.
Another confusing point is that if history in the rebooted universe is the same as the old universe (minus cracks obviously) then how, in this universe, does history say he defeated the angels?
Originally Posted by doctor blue box:
“Whilst I like love the episode overall, as it was well paced, a good premise, and the first one of matt's doctor that really resonated with me, the thing that makes me sad about it is that by using the crack as the resolution, the potential for it as a classic stand alone story was ruined. What I mean by this is that you couldn't just whip out this story in 20 years and show it to someone without explaining to them the whole arc of that series.
Also I tie myself up in knots trying to figure out how in river's timeline, she can be in the crack's universe having already experienced the event's of the pandorica story.
Another confusing point is that if history in the rebooted universe is the same as the old universe (minus cracks obviously) then how, in this universe, does history say he defeated the angels?”
“Whilst I like love the episode overall, as it was well paced, a good premise, and the first one of matt's doctor that really resonated with me, the thing that makes me sad about it is that by using the crack as the resolution, the potential for it as a classic stand alone story was ruined. What I mean by this is that you couldn't just whip out this story in 20 years and show it to someone without explaining to them the whole arc of that series.
Also I tie myself up in knots trying to figure out how in river's timeline, she can be in the crack's universe having already experienced the event's of the pandorica story.
Another confusing point is that if history in the rebooted universe is the same as the old universe (minus cracks obviously) then how, in this universe, does history say he defeated the angels?”
The reboot means that the events of the story never took place. The Doctor, Amy, and River, remember the events because they are time travelers.
Originally Posted by Piipp:
“The reboot means that the events of the story never took place. The Doctor, Amy, and River, remember the events because they are time travelers.”
“The reboot means that the events of the story never took place. The Doctor, Amy, and River, remember the events because they are time travelers.”
But that still dosen't explain river being in the cracks universe after experiencing the event's pf the pandorica story.River was put in the new rebooted universe like everyone else and couldn't somehow travel to the old 'cracks' one because it had been completely destroyed by the effects of the exploding tardis, yet at the end the wedding of river song we see river just coming back from this adventure.
Based on that wedding of river song scene, which was well after the universe reboot, I can only deduct that the event's of the story still did take place in the new universe and the doctor just had to defeat the angels in some other way to what we saw in the episode. The question is how, because he seemed pretty cornered before the cracks did the job for him.
For me, this is an absolute classic.
Having been blown away by Matt's performance in The Eleventh Hour, I watched this in the knowledge that it was his first filmed episode and wondered whether you would see him 'feeling his way' into the part. Nope. He's brilliant in this.
Great speech leading up to the cliffhanger. He had some corkers, but it's right up there.
Having been blown away by Matt's performance in The Eleventh Hour, I watched this in the knowledge that it was his first filmed episode and wondered whether you would see him 'feeling his way' into the part. Nope. He's brilliant in this.
Great speech leading up to the cliffhanger. He had some corkers, but it's right up there.
Originally Posted by doctor blue box:
“...Based on that wedding of river song scene, which was well after the universe reboot, I can only deduct that the event's of the story still did take place in the new universe and the doctor just had to defeat the angels in some other way to what we saw in the episode. The question is how, because he seemed pretty cornered before the cracks did the job for him.”
“...Based on that wedding of river song scene, which was well after the universe reboot, I can only deduct that the event's of the story still did take place in the new universe and the doctor just had to defeat the angels in some other way to what we saw in the episode. The question is how, because he seemed pretty cornered before the cracks did the job for him.”
That's what I think. After all, reboots are nothing new, and we're talking about someone who existed in both Universes. I know what you mean, in that River's experience in the Byzantium should have taken place after the crack had been closed up because that had already happened when she was younger (Episode 13), yet the whole point of the story was that the cracks were present and correct!
This plot hole (and I think it was one, but only for those who thought about it) could have been easily solved if she had just not mentioned the Pandorica! Moffat should have stuck to more flirty banter, then people could just look back and presume that it was similar events in the new reality. She could have sent a message to the Doctor in either Universe. She could have been working for the military in either Universe. The Doctor could have opened the walls in the spaceship with a flick of a switch when the Gravity failed and the Angels could have plunged down and got smashed. Amy would be cured by the 'death' of the angel that possessed her etc etc.
I agree with those that would have preferred an unrelated solution, which also didn't raise questions about River in various Universes. Hopefully better then my idea above, but then I'm not getting paid. Still, it was a very entertaining watch and Matt was brilliant in it. One of my favourites.
Originally Posted by Shrimps:
“That's what I think. After all, reboots are nothing new, and we're talking about someone who existed in both Universes. I know what you mean, in that River's experience in the Byzantium should have taken place after the crack had been closed up because that had already happened when she was younger (Episode 13), yet the whole point of the story was that the cracks were present and correct!
This plot hole (and I think it was one, but only for those who thought about it) could have been easily solved if she had just not mentioned the Pandorica! Moffat should have stuck to more flirty banter, then people could just look back and presume that it was similar events in the new reality. She could have sent a message to the Doctor in either Universe. She could have been working for the military in either Universe. The Doctor could have opened the walls in the spaceship with a flick of a switch when the Gravity failed and the Angels could have plunged down and got smashed. Amy would be cured by the 'death' of the angel that possessed her etc etc.
I agree with those that would have preferred an unrelated solution, which also didn't raise questions about River in various Universes. Hopefully better then my idea above, but then I'm not getting paid. Still, it was a very entertaining watch and Matt was brilliant in it. One of my favourites.”
“That's what I think. After all, reboots are nothing new, and we're talking about someone who existed in both Universes. I know what you mean, in that River's experience in the Byzantium should have taken place after the crack had been closed up because that had already happened when she was younger (Episode 13), yet the whole point of the story was that the cracks were present and correct!
This plot hole (and I think it was one, but only for those who thought about it) could have been easily solved if she had just not mentioned the Pandorica! Moffat should have stuck to more flirty banter, then people could just look back and presume that it was similar events in the new reality. She could have sent a message to the Doctor in either Universe. She could have been working for the military in either Universe. The Doctor could have opened the walls in the spaceship with a flick of a switch when the Gravity failed and the Angels could have plunged down and got smashed. Amy would be cured by the 'death' of the angel that possessed her etc etc.
I agree with those that would have preferred an unrelated solution, which also didn't raise questions about River in various Universes. Hopefully better then my idea above, but then I'm not getting paid. Still, it was a very entertaining watch and Matt was brilliant in it. One of my favourites.”
Glad their are others who see what I see. It is a shame really, as it's mostly a brilliant episode. As you've said, just cutting the line about the pandorica ( although it was exciting foreshadowing at the time) or not involving the cracks in the episode would have made it completely perfect as it would have meant the story could still have happened the same in either universe. What I don't understand is that moffat would surely have written the finale before time of angels/ flesh and stone was anywhere near filming, so how did he, or anyone else privy to the script's not see this. He probably couldn't care less about a plot error four years ago now, but he should have done at the time.
Finally getting time to re-watch these, missed them when they were repeated but good ol' sky+ , great episodes so far 
If there is one thing Moff has consistently shown in his era is his ability to write SCARY stories, even in the RTD era "have you seen my Mommy"
Looking forward to series 8!
If there is one thing Moff has consistently shown in his era is his ability to write SCARY stories, even in the RTD era "have you seen my Mommy"
Looking forward to series 8!
Liked the bit when 11 says "river song i could bloody kiss you ". Reply "maybe when you're older". Technically true and accurate. One other thing Amy being ill and nearly dking after the angel infects her. River isn't affected. If Amy had died before conceiving let alone carrying or delivering her daughter river/melody should have faded out of existence !. Instead she manages to beam her future mum out of harms way before all 3 escape.
It's one of those two parters that reminds me why I miss two-parters.
Fantastic cameo by Mike Skinner, wonderful opening and re-introduction to River Song.
It has pacing, drama, a brilliant cliff-hanger and speech, brilliant sense of peril, brilliant enemy - just everything!
Without being at all overbearing.
Fantastic cameo by Mike Skinner, wonderful opening and re-introduction to River Song.
It has pacing, drama, a brilliant cliff-hanger and speech, brilliant sense of peril, brilliant enemy - just everything!
Without being at all overbearing.
Originally Posted by f_196:
“It's one of those two parters that reminds me why I miss two-parters.
Fantastic cameo by Mike Skinner, wonderful opening and re-introduction to River Song.
It has pacing, drama, a brilliant cliff-hanger and speech, brilliant sense of peril, brilliant enemy - just everything!
Without being at all overbearing.”
“It's one of those two parters that reminds me why I miss two-parters.
Fantastic cameo by Mike Skinner, wonderful opening and re-introduction to River Song.
It has pacing, drama, a brilliant cliff-hanger and speech, brilliant sense of peril, brilliant enemy - just everything!
Without being at all overbearing.”
For me this was the most epic pre credits scene of the whole of moffats tenure, Up until name of the doctor's pre credits scene
Originally Posted by doctor blue box:
“For me this was the most epic pre credits scene of the whole of moffats tenure, Up until name of the doctor's pre credits scene”
“For me this was the most epic pre credits scene of the whole of moffats tenure, Up until name of the doctor's pre credits scene”
It was a great scene!
p.s. You're almost posting as much as I nowadays ...
Originally Posted by The_Judge_:
“It was a great scene!
p.s. You're almost posting as much as I nowadays ...”
“It was a great scene!
p.s. You're almost posting as much as I nowadays ...
”
I know, sadly I'm afflicted with chronic doctor who obsession, a disease I see symptoms of it in many of the other posters also
p.s thought it was a shame that your thread on family on blood never really got off the ground as I thought it was an interesting subject for discussion
Originally Posted by Sara_Peplow:
“. One other thing Amy being ill and nearly dking after the angel infects her. River isn't affected. If Amy had died before conceiving let alone carrying or delivering her daughter river/melody should have faded out of existence !. Instead she manages to beam her future mum out of harms way before all 3 escape.”
“. One other thing Amy being ill and nearly dking after the angel infects her. River isn't affected. If Amy had died before conceiving let alone carrying or delivering her daughter river/melody should have faded out of existence !. Instead she manages to beam her future mum out of harms way before all 3 escape.”
But Amy didn't die, she was saved. So there was never any risk that River wouldn't be conceived. You could say that it was because River knew Amy must survive that she decided to waste her time trying to fix the supposedly-unfixable teleport. She already knew Amy would survive.
Originally Posted by doctor blue box:
“I know, sadly I'm afflicted with chronic doctor who obsession, a disease I see symptoms of it in many of the other posters also
p.s thought it was a shame that your thread on family on blood never really got off the ground as I thought it was an interesting subject for discussion”
“I know, sadly I'm afflicted with chronic doctor who obsession, a disease I see symptoms of it in many of the other posters also
p.s thought it was a shame that your thread on family on blood never really got off the ground as I thought it was an interesting subject for discussion
”
Danke schon. I thought it was interesting too, hence the thread
