He surely is now, but were talking about when their was a choice where he could not have been

Eh? Movie or feature length episode? Was Day of the Doctor a movie or a feature length episode? Five Doctors the same. All three were stand alone, feature length episodes not shown as part of any season or series. I don't see any difference.
Cushings movies were not BBC and always intended to be separate from the show. McGann' s 'movie' was an attempt at a relaunch. For all it's faults, still a proper episode with a real Doctor.

The window of opportunity for this had long since closed before RTD started to bring it back as McGann was accepted by fandom from the outset and considered a Doctor all through the wilderness years. imo any choice he may have made not to include McGann as canon and have McCoy regenerate into Eccleston would have met with strong opposition and controversy. I would go as far as saying that Eccleston may not have been so widely accepted. I would even go as far as saying that there would be far more than the very small minority that exist who do no consider 2005 and onward as canon.

The tv movie was partly produced by the bbc and the VHS and dvd releases was part of the official range. Paul was announced as the 8th doctor and when he started big finish he was classified as the 8th doctor. Chris was classified as the 9th doctor when he started so I really don't understand why there is a question mark over Paul being cannon.

Bottom line really. But as a 'what if' it's an interesting question. But RTD etc went for a continuation rather than a reboot. And that was quite right. Once he did, Paul's Doctor was canon.

Well, of COURSE he did. As fans, RTD, SM etc would never have countenanced otherwise. Worked out quite well, I reckon.

Not really

Perhaps you've forgotten the difference between a pilot for a continuation of the TV series (which is exactly what it was) and a movie?

The TV movie part was a reclassification after the follow up series never occured.

It is blantantly done in a movie format, but whether or not you 'think' it is a movie, it dosen't matter anyway had no connection to the production of classic who or new who which are the only two recognised parts of the actual series therfore whether or not a series was intended from it is irrelevant because one never materialised and so it stands as a lone production . The episodes of the established series go from an unearthly child to survival, and then from rose onwards.

Whatever you class it as, what it isn't is an official episode of the series. Obviously everyone who matters or had the authority to make a decision over it also disagree with you by nature of the fact that they chose to call it 'the tv movie'.

can you explain to me the production connections between Rose and An Unearthly Child that make them official and the Mcgann episode not?

Oh and obviously those in authority actually disagree with you on account of the fact there is direct continuity running through the TV movie which bridges the two eras and Eight appears in all official merchandising.

Yet again you seem to have changed the tone of the thread from 'Would you have chosen to include him in official canon' to 'I don't think he is official canon and nor should he be'.

Lets put aside ponderings and what might've been and trying to back up opinions with vague references to 'those in authority'.

Instead here is a simple fact. The moment Sylv turned up in that little blue box at the beginning of the TV movie it became a continuation of the classic series and as such canon. Would it have been possible for RTD to have reversed this? Possibly. That fact he didn't only cemented the fact. Eight is canon. TV movie is part of the series.

Paul is cannon now and chris was the 9th doctor when he started but all of this was RTD's choice. Whether or not fan's had decided that he was official, the fact remains that the tv movie was not part of classic who or new who, and so the event's in it did not occur in the series at all, which is why, had he chosen, RTD could have decided to ignore it completely, and state in new who that it went (based on the doctors we saw in the series) from mccoy to eccleston. Had he done so, and we'd had eight years of that as the line up, then even those who had loved mcgann's portrayal would have had to long ago accept that he was not cannon.

It's sort of a turn left scenario. Im sure in an alternate universe there's a poster on an alternate version of this forum, saying how they wished mcgann could have been cannon, only for others to say how, with all the silly thing's said in the movie, it was good that it wasn't accepted a part of the official history.

But in this reality Mcgann has always been the Eighth doctor and the TV movie a continuation of Classic Who. Why are we discussing alternate realities?! There could be an alternate reality where Eccles stays on for six seasons and then Doctor Who becomes an Oscar winning film spin off. It didn't.

I'm glad McGann was acknowledged by the new series. I hate it when TV Movie continuations (Knight Rider 2000, Dallas: JR Returns, The Munsters' Revenge) are ignored and overwritten by subsequent revivals.

I must have said on four or five post's now I fully acknowledge that he is cannon now. At this point there's no denying that fact, there hasn't been any denying it since the line up of all doctor's was shown and night of the doctor cemented this beyond anyone's doubt. I find myself in the process of exchanging more heated posts because it seems that people want to keep attacking me because they have just looked at the title of the thread and assumed that I'm saying that I dont think he is real, which if they bother to actually read the entirety of my first post (admittedly long, I know), they would realise that this is not the case and I meant it as a purely what if lighthearted thread. Maybe I should have titled it to 'what if mcgann hadn't been real' to better get across what I meant but the post fully explains my meaning.

The main theme of what I was trying to say is that in my opinion, it is only RTD and new who that officially decided mcgann's legitimacy in terms of the show. The tv movie wasn't, production wise part of the series and you now acknowledge yourself that RTD could have reversed what it portrayed. Everyone seems hung up on the mccoy scenes in the film but I have already said that RTD could have easily done a mccoy to eccleston regeneration minisode for the benefit of the classic who fans, thus retconning mccoys part in the movie, and aired it shortly before the first ep or something had he chosen to go down that path, so it's perfectly feasable.

please can people read the whole first post before thinking I'm trying to say mcgann isn't cannon, because you'll see I'm clearly not. This was and still is intended as a what if thread if people can let it go back to that. After all the what if threads I've seen on here I feel disappointed that the one time I try to create one thinking it will be fun, people who only skim my original post attack me for misunderstanding my meaning.

But people disagree with your continued assertion that the Tv movie is not part of the same series. You claimed as such up thread saying the official series goes from Survival to Rose and TV movie is unconnected. This isn't a what if. Its a false statement. The TV movie is a continuation of Classic Who. The fact RTD couldve erased the episode doesn't change this.

The what if stuff is fun. Don't see anyone disagreeing with that.

But you couldn't erase any new who or classic who episode, so the very fact that you can with the tv movie, to me at least, sort of proves that it isn't part of the real series. To me it was a stand alone movie which rusell decided should be part of the history.

anyway, whether or not i personally feel that the tv movie was not an official episode dosen't really matter. What does matter is that it, and mcgann was absorbed into the history of the series which is why mcgann is cannon, but I just wondered what if RTD had decided not to recognise it, which was the point of the thread.

To simplify my curiosity even more, what I was really getting at was how annoying it is to have the half human line, and democratic, friend of the doctor daleks floating about in something which is now a recognised part of the history, and my feeling was that the only way to retcon this completely would have been for RTD to not have recognised the movie at all, which would have also meant not recognising mcgann, and was wondering what people would have thought of this as a trade off - mcgann not official in exchange for never again having to acknowledge that half human line.

We already have at least one poster who insists the new series is non-canon. If there had been two McCoy regenerations, such loonies would have been given a legitimate reason to argue that the 2005 revival was not 'real' Doctor Who.

What "half human" line? (denial is a river in Egypt, I believe)

Seriously, I know where you're coming from, and RTD could WELL have done a reboot or ignored The TV movie, don't think the BBC would've been that bothered as long as it was a success tbh, but I was very happy to see A sketch of McGann in the 'Book of impossible Things' , NOTD was rather thrilling and, although I have yet to explore BF to any degree, McGann has his devotees, which is marvellous.

In short, yep, glad 8 is in the, er, pantheon.

Thanks for your post, as I was starting to wonder if anyone could see my point of view. I am certainly glad he wasn't dis-included based on his acting ability, as he did the part real justice, I just don't like the material that comes with him. Why oh Why did they not have him say 'I once thought I was half human for a while after a particularly bad regeneration really messed with my head' or something similar in night of the doctor. There may never be that chance again

Interesting point. I understand where your coming from, but I'd say yes and no really, because if both clearly featured mccoy and the only difference was that one was backed, then it would have to be judged on the backed one, as being the only means of telling the difference so surely they would have to acknowledge the backed one if nothing in either new or classic who backed up the original one.

anyway as you said, we have these type of people anyway so I think whatever happened, someone somewhere would have had issues with new who

To be fair those examples don't help support your preference to continuations rather than revivals.

Battlestar Gallactica, The 'new' Star Trek franchise, Sherlock... All examples of how sometimes reboots can be very successful indeed!

Ftr I'm a firm believer 8 should be canon, for reasons better articulated by those before me here.

I don't think it would have been fair not to to be honest. The film was always meant to be considered canon and was an unofficial pilot for a potential new series. Also Paul McGann did a lot of work for Doctor Who after the TV movie, so it would have been unfair to him and those involved in his stories (Big Finish etc.) not to count him as canon.

I wasn't talking about reboots. I was talking about TV Movie continuations which were ignored by later revivals. For example, the current revival of Dallas ignores and overwrites the 1990s TV Movies, although both treat the original series as canon. The Munsters Today ignores and overwrites The Munsters' Revenge, although both treat the original series as canon. Knight Rider takes the prize for failed revivals ignoring each other with Knight Rider 2000, Knight Rider 2010, Team Knight Rider and the 2008 version of Knight Rider all going off in their own directions.

In comics, there were at least four divergent revivals of Dan Dare which treated the Frank Hampson original as canon, but ignored each other.

The same thing could easily have happened with Doctor Who, causing all sorts of squabbles over which version is the 'real' continuation. (Although I guess there might be a tiny minority of one or two Shalka fans who think a flash animation is more legitimate than seven full series.)

There was talk I believe to have the Doctor in the TVM (McGann was probably not cast at this point) regenerate from Tom Baker as he was the most well known Doctor in the U.S.


So we could have had a version of the show where McGann was the 5th Doctor

If that had ever gone to a full series, I imagine fandom would have descended into a civil war.

My GOD, I can just see it now, John Cleese the fifth Doctor....