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Is it odd we didn't see the moment of change to 12? |
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#1 |
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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Is it odd we didn't see the moment of change to 12?
Have watched the regeneration scene countless times, as I'm guessing many have and I'm wondering if there's anything in the fact that we didn't actually see the moment of change. At the actual point he changes his face goes completely off screen for a split second then comes back as Capaldi.
Now I know that it is likely this is just nothing, but could there be more to it? It's very subtle and we know that despite what we individually think of Moffat's arcs he is very good at misdirection. Is it possible that the 'change' was actually some sort of teleport and Capaldi is not in fact the doctor in the most ambitious storyline Moffat has ever attempted?. Just thinking about the one year contract rumours and some joking/speculating about Capaldi secretly being the master and it has made me wonder. Not saying that if it was a teleport Capaldi would have to be the master, as any character could have done it, but he's as likely a character as anyone. Probably just another crazy conspiracy theory I know, but I find it strange that his entire face does physically leave the screen at the point of change, and feel it would be very Moffat - esque to plant something so innocent and barely noticeable which could later link to a major plot point. |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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It's possible in that there's no evidence completely to contradict it but, yes, it's akin to many conspiracy theories in that that's the best you can say. I'd therefore rate it as exceedingly unlikely.
You're completely right that it was a bit odd though, the way the change just suddenly happened — it's not how these things have been presented previously and we're coming off a very consistent run. Personally I just assumed they'd spent too much on the 50th... |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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It's very subtle and we know that despite what we individually think of Moffat's arcs he is very good at misdirection.
[...] and feel it would be very Moffat - esque to plant something so innocent and barely noticeable which could later link to a major plot point. There's no way the BBC could justify the hoo-ha over Capaldi's appointment and then write it off as a trick. And there's no way Moffat would betray the kiddies by giving them a new Doctor and taking him away again. |
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#4 |
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Back in 2005, I remember debating with another forum member (right here on this forum) his suggestion that the Season 1 cliffhanger could be a revelation that Christopher Eccleston was not the Doctor but an imposter - and the real Doctor (David Tennant) was in suspended animation in the TARDIS somewhere.
His point of view was that it would be an amazing revelation/cliffhanger but mine was that it would actually alienate the audience if they found out they'd be watching a fake for a whole year. I would feel the same about the 12th Doctor, to be honest. |
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#5 |
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While Moffat is indeed very good at misdirection, he knows when he can get away with it and when he cannot. And perhaps more importantly, has been 'accused' of it far more than he has actually used it.
There's no way the BBC could justify the hoo-ha over Capaldi's appointment and then write it off as a trick. And there's no way Moffat would betray the kiddies by giving them a new Doctor and taking him away again. As for giving a new doctor then taking him away again, the voices praising such a genius, inventive storyline would likely outweigh those moaning about it. The show didn't suffer after eccleston left after only one series,and the transition would be even easier if people understood he never actually was really the doctor at all Another point is that if Capaldi was an imposter, by the time the series was over, they would most likely have Clara find the real doctor or the real doctor escape or something so by the time the series was done, Capaldi would be gone but we'd still be in no doubt as to who the doctor was. As earlier acknowledged, probably unlikely to happen, but in theory perfectly viable. |
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#6 |
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I've just watched it now. Although it was very quick, he is glowing a regeneration, there was gold energy in both shots so I think this is unlikely- and if it s true, I'm never watching the show again! I know some people don't like the casting but this theory is just ridiculous under the same logic you can say Clara's an imposter because she wasn't in every shot either
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#7 |
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Back in 2005, I remember debating with another forum member (right here on this forum) his suggestion that the Season 1 cliffhanger could be a revelation that Christopher Eccleston was not the Doctor but an imposter - and the real Doctor (David Tennant) was in suspended animation in the TARDIS somewhere.
His point of view was that it would be an amazing revelation/cliffhanger but mine was that it would actually alienate the audience if they found out they'd be watching a fake for a whole year. I would feel the same about the 12th Doctor, to be honest. Here's my imaginary scenario for how it could possibly be done well In one or two episodes Clara notices this person in just one or two scenes, nothing overbearing that would harm the standalone episode. Then on maybe the third he seemingly tries to attack them but then we get a revelation on that particular episode in the form of him saying that he is actually the doctor and that capaldi is an imposter trying to take over his life. Clara then confont's Capaldi who say's that the other guy is the master(or some other imposter) and that they are just trying to confuse her to steal his tardis for their evil schemes. Give that Clara has no reference on how the doctor should act in this new incarnation, we see flashes in subsequent episodes of her reassuring herself he is the doctor when he saves the day, and then doubting whether or not he is an imposter when he does something bad, wondering if he's just trying to convince her until he can kill the real doctor. I would then end it with a two or three part huge finale, where they fight a personal battle across time and space (or maybe just in one location for budget reasons) with Clara completely confused as to who to trust and us finding out who is the real doctor about 10 mins before the end so we have the last ten minutes to fully get used to the idea. In this scenario you've already met the 'real doctor' a few times before the revelation so it's not like it's a total stranger suddenly pulling the rug from under capaldi, and during the series itself I could imagine media speculation overdrive and the biggest casual interest in years. The best thing would be mid series, when the mystery was set they could have the perfect advertising pitch. Big poster's with capaldi and the other guy either side and down the middle the word's 'doctor who?' That's how i'd do it anyway. I know this particular post is more imagination than speculation, just trying to provide an example of how I feel it could be done well. |
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#8 |
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I've just watched it now. Although it was very quick, he is glowing a regeneration, there was gold energy in both shots so I think this is unlikely- and if it s true, I'm never watching the show again! I know some people don't like the casting but this theory is just ridiculous under the same logic you can say Clara's an imposter because she wasn't in every shot either
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#9 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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The thing I find most bizarre is that Moffat has done three partially-shown regenerations in quick succession. Has he got something against a clear, continuous shot which starts with one Doctor and ends the next?
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#10 |
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The thing I find most bizarre is that Moffat has done three partially-shown regenerations in quick succession. Has he got something against a clear, continuous shot which starts with one Doctor and ends the next?
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#11 |
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I remember hearing the same kind of speculation, but more with people saying mcgann would turn up as the real doctor, and felt exactly the same as you about how it would alienate the audience, but I feel it's about how it's done.
Here's my imaginary scenario for how it could possibly be done well In one or two episodes Clara notices this person in just one or two scenes, nothing overbearing that would harm the standalone episode. Then on maybe the third he seemingly tries to attack them but then we get a revelation on that particular episode in the form of him saying that he is actually the doctor and that capaldi is an imposter trying to take over his life. Clara then confont's Capaldi who say's that the other guy is the master(or some other imposter) and that they are just trying to confuse her to steal his tardis for their evil schemes. Give that Clara has no reference on how the doctor should act in this new incarnation, we see flashes in subsequent episodes of her reassuring herself he is the doctor when he saves the day, and then doubting whether or not he is an imposter when he does something bad, wondering if he's just trying to convince her until he can kill the real doctor. I would then end it with a two or three part huge finale, where they fight a personal battle across time and space (or maybe just in one location for budget reasons) with Clara completely confused as to who to trust and us finding out who is the real doctor about 10 mins before the end so we have the last ten minutes to fully get used to the idea. In this scenario you've already met the 'real doctor' a few times before the revelation so it's not like it's a total stranger suddenly pulling the rug from under capaldi, and during the series itself I could imagine media speculation overdrive and the biggest casual interest in years. The best thing would be mid series, when the mystery was set they could have the perfect advertising pitch. Big poster's with capaldi and the other guy either side and down the middle the word's 'doctor who?' That's how i'd do it anyway. I know this particular post is more imagination than speculation, just trying to provide an example of how I feel it could be done well. The only ways it could possibly work, without causing grievances from the majority of the audience, would be if we knew straight away he was the bad guy masquerading - which would be ebside the point - or if the bad guy really thought he was a good guy all along, but then it was revealed to all, including himself - but that was done with the Master already. You can carry on saying 'it depends how it's done', but it seems very very unlikely. And not a terribly good idea in the first place. |
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#12 |
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Have watched the regeneration scene countless times, as I'm guessing many have and I'm wondering if there's anything in the fact that we didn't actually see the moment of change. At the actual point he changes his face goes completely off screen for a split second then comes back as Capaldi.
Now I know that it is likely this is just nothing, but could there be more to it? It's very subtle and we know that despite what we individually think of Moffat's arcs he is very good at misdirection. Is it possible that the 'change' was actually some sort of teleport and Capaldi is not in fact the doctor in the most ambitious storyline Moffat has ever attempted?. Just thinking about the one year contract rumours and some joking/speculating about Capaldi secretly being the master and it has made me wonder. Not saying that if it was a teleport Capaldi would have to be the master, as any character could have done it, but he's as likely a character as anyone. Probably just another crazy conspiracy theory I know, but I find it strange that his entire face does physically leave the screen at the point of change, and feel it would be very Moffat - esque to plant something so innocent and barely noticeable which could later link to a major plot point. |
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#13 |
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Interesting idea. But no.
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#14 |
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I remember you mentioning this idea on another thread. Quite simply I abhor the idea, just my opinion. It would be awful.
To be honest, as I said in the original post, It's probably just nothing, and as other's have said maybe just budget constraints were the reason for not actually seeing the change. The point though, is that with a show like this you never know what is important so there's always that chance, however unlikely. even if my 'not the doctor' type idea's, which were just an imaginary bit of fun, are so unworkable and abhorrent that Moffat would never even dream of trying such a thing, dosen't mean to say that he couldn't use the fact of not seeing it for some other purpose, say where everything is as it seems but the regeneration went slightly wrong in some way or something of that nature, which has later effects for the doctor. I know, that come the time, the way that scene happened is probably 99% not going to be relevant to the future in any way, but good or bad, Moffat thinks outside of the box, and in my speculations I like to try and do the same. If we all just posted idea's on what everyone agreed was likely to happen, there wouldn't be much variation on speculative discussion, and again even what people think is likely is often off or wrong where moffat is concerned anyway, so why not let your imagination run wild when speculating I say. ![]() Surely my speculating that it might be relevant is no worse than the countles people speculating that every new woman is the rani/jenny or that sally sparrows return may happen. |
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#15 |
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No. Capaldi is the Doctor. End of story. Not only is it a terrible idea but it would make no sense and isn't feasible. There was no 'teleport'. It was a regeneration. The reasons why it was slightly different to before were clear.
Is it possible? Well its science fiction. Anything is possible. It doesn't make it good writing or a viable idea. I also think this Master of Misdirection thing about Moffat is rather overstated. He actually hasn't done it that much. Its the fans who keep expecting him to do it that get themselves all worked up that everything is a lie and nothing is as it seems. As is the case here. |
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#16 |
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I seem to remember, as I mentioned earlier that in the time of angels/flesh and stone story there seemed to be a debate on here where some were speculating it was a future doctor going back through his timeline and others were convinced that these people were crazy to even think there was anything relevant in it, and that it was clearly just a production error. In that case the 'production error' idea seemed much more likely yet it was the doctor going back through his timeline that actually turned out to be correct. Also I don't remember hearing or seeing anyone correctly predict the resolution to the whole 'impossible girl' storyline before time so when people say it's just the fan's imagining moffat's misdirection, I think these kind of things show otherwise.
The main vein of the thread was wondering if the unseen change moment could possibly be part of some future plot point in some way. The 'teleport' type scenario was just one way that I thought off just for fun, which admittedly hasn't gone down to well, which is fair enough, I posed an idea and got a response. Although I would ask in future, as I try to remember to do myself on the threads of other's, that people give reasons for why they like/dislike your ideas. Some have done this and some haven't but when people don't and just say 'your idea is terrible' or something to that effect it's just meaningless negativity whereas when someone says 'I dont like this idea because...' then their actually giving insightful feedback as to why they don't like it Everything else aside my basic question was 'is it possible it could have been done in that way to serve a future plot point?' because I think that, although unlikely, it is a possibility and wondered if anyone else thought the same' |
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#17 |
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I seem to remember, as I mentioned earlier that in the time of angels/flesh and stone story there seemed to be a debate on here where some were speculating it was a future doctor going back through his timeline and others were convinced that these people were crazy to even think there was anything relevant in it, and that it was clearly just a production error. In that case the 'production error' idea seemed much more likely yet it was the doctor going back through his timeline that actually turned out to be correct. Also I don't remember hearing or seeing anyone correctly predict the resolution to the whole 'impossible girl' storyline before time so when people say it's just the fan's imagining moffat's misdirection, I think these kind of things show otherwise.
The main vein of the thread was wondering if the unseen change moment could possibly be part of some future plot point in some way. The 'teleport' type scenario was just one way that I thought off just for fun, which admittedly hasn't gone down to well, which is fair enough, I posed an idea and got a response. Although I would ask in future, as I try to remember to do myself on the threads of other's, that people give reasons for why they like/dislike your ideas. Some have done this and some haven't but when people don't and just say 'your idea is terrible' or something to that effect it's just meaningless negativity whereas when someone says 'I dont like this idea because...' then their actually giving insightful feedback as to why they don't like it Everything else aside my basic question was 'is it possible it could have been done in that way to serve a future plot point?' because I think that, although unlikely, it is a possibility and wondered if anyone else thought the same' But then, by that same token so could any suddenly different camera angle. So could any mistake or production error. The overwhelming likelihood is it is nothing other than a stylistic decision made by the Director. Just as it was for the other regenerations that we didn't see the whole thing. |
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#18 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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I very much doubt a teleportation or any other magic switcharoo took place. We saw the 11th Doctor have a vision of Amy Pond. Those were undoubtedly his final moments.
For this idea to work, there would need to be a fake 12 on the TARDIS and a real 12 on the kidnappers' ship. Which would alienate the audience. Correct me if this is wrong, but the OP seems like desperate straw-clutching from someone who doesn't want Capaldi to be the 12th Doctor. |
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#19 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
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I very much doubt a teleportation or any other magic switcharoo took place. We saw the 11th Doctor have a vision of Amy Pond. Those were undoubtedly his final moments.
For this idea to work, there would need to be a fake 12 on the TARDIS and a real 12 on the kidnappers' ship. Which would alienate the audience. Correct me if this is wrong, but the OP seems like desperate straw-clutching from someone who doesn't want Capaldi to be the 12th Doctor. Also on a side note what does OP mean? |
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#20 |
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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I very much doubt a teleportation or any other magic switcharoo took place. We saw the 11th Doctor have a vision of Amy Pond. Those were undoubtedly his final moments.
For this idea to work, there would need to be a fake 12 on the TARDIS and a real 12 on the kidnappers' ship. Which would alienate the audience. Correct me if this is wrong, but the OP seems like desperate straw-clutching from someone who doesn't want Capaldi to be the 12th Doctor. |
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#21 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Have watched the regeneration scene countless times, as I'm guessing many have and I'm wondering if there's anything in the fact that we didn't actually see the moment of change. At the actual point he changes his face goes completely off screen for a split second then comes back as Capaldi.
Now I know that it is likely this is just nothing, but could there be more to it? It's very subtle and we know that despite what we individually think of Moffat's arcs he is very good at misdirection. Is it possible that the 'change' was actually some sort of teleport and Capaldi is not in fact the doctor in the most ambitious storyline Moffat has ever attempted?. Just thinking about the one year contract rumours and some joking/speculating about Capaldi secretly being the master and it has made me wonder. Not saying that if it was a teleport Capaldi would have to be the master, as any character could have done it, but he's as likely a character as anyone. Probably just another crazy conspiracy theory I know, but I find it strange that his entire face does physically leave the screen at the point of change, and feel it would be very Moffat - esque to plant something so innocent and barely noticeable which could later link to a major plot point. |
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#22 |
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I think it was mainly just because the whole big flashy regeneration bit was done on the clocktower, and it would seem a bit redundant to do it again into Capaldi.
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#23 |
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I think it was mainly just because the whole big flashy regeneration bit was done on the clocktower, and it would seem a bit redundant to do it again into Capaldi.
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#24 |
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It's possible in that there's no evidence completely to contradict it but, yes, it's akin to many conspiracy theories in that that's the best you can say. I'd therefore rate it as exceedingly unlikely.
You're completely right that it was a bit odd though, the way the change just suddenly happened — it's not how these things have been presented previously and we're coming off a very consistent run. Personally I just assumed they'd spent too much on the 50th... This is a better clip of the regeneration, showing Smith's face actually morphing into Capaldi's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...f6HMgQIoQ#t=79 And this is the alternate ending of the Time of the Doctor, featuring the shot of Capaldi's eyes, as we saw them in the Day of the Doctor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjSfAub8zgw |
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#25 |
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Also on a side note what does OP mean? |
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