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EE Change T&Cs for New customers |
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#51 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,286
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Quote:
Haha no idea how credit card companies detect but it's obviously broke I once got my card locked because I brought a dominos in Manchester. But somehow a 800 euro a night room in Paris went through took ages sort that situation out.
Purchasing an item from my preferred e-tailer twice in one day marked as fraud (despite me confirming explicitly with them after they blocked the first transaction it was legitimate, *and* authorized it with my password via Mastercard Secure), purchasing from a random company in a foreign country I had never been to without PIN or password - not detected as fraud! Anyhow, companies clearly make "guesstimate" decisions on information that's not 100% reliable, what EE will do in respect of the new T&Cs - i.e. whether they will enforce it strictly or not - is yet to be seen. |
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#52 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Northampton
Posts: 1,014
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I just had a £50 apology credit from my company for inconvenience after the ridiculous number of times the anti-fraud tripped on my account, hence why it came to mind so quickly.
Purchasing an item from my preferred e-tailer twice in one day marked as fraud (despite me confirming explicitly with them after they blocked the first transaction it was legitimate, *and* authorized it with my password via Mastercard Secure), purchasing from a random company in a foreign country I had never been to without PIN or password - not detected as fraud! Anyhow, companies clearly make "guesstimate" decisions on information that's not 100% reliable, what EE will do in respect of the new T&Cs - i.e. whether they will enforce it strictly or not - is yet to be seen. |
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#53 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bristol (BBC1 West)
Posts: 15,143
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Anyhow, companies clearly make "guesstimate" decisions on information that's not 100% reliable, what EE will do in respect of the new T&Cs - i.e. whether they will enforce it strictly or not - is yet to be seen.
One of them is something that needs to stand up in court and is going to be seen as a massively negative action, the other is something designed to stop people being defrauded out of thousands of pounds and is at worst an inconvenience. |
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#54 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 249
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How on earth have you reached that conclusion!?
The terms and conditions don't mention ANYTHING about using a different SIM in the phone. They can't possibly tell from a different SIM being in the phone that you've done anything against the terms and conditions. If there's a different SIM in the phone than the one sold (or used on that account) then that would indicate that the equipment is used by someone else. |
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#55 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 249
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Well, the networks know every combination of SIM/handset used on their network, if I used an O2 SIM on my EE phone, EE would be clueless to it (except if, say it ran out of signal on O2 and tried to register on EE, that might trigger something).
Then again if I had multiple EE SIMs (e.g. a phone SIM and mobile broadband SIM as I've had in the past) I can't see them conceivably blocking my phone because I swapped them round at some point. I agree it's purely there to combat box-breaking and defaults. |
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#56 |
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: a land filled with trolls
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3.13.1 Cannot sell or otherwise permanently give the Equipment to anyone else.
If there's a different SIM in the phone than the one sold (or used on that account) then that would indicate that the equipment is used by someone else. |
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#57 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,286
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Correct. Networks can only see what's on their network. However given the phone is sold network locked, getting it unlocked in the first 6 months might suggest some intent?
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#58 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bristol (BBC1 West)
Posts: 15,143
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3.13.1 Cannot sell or otherwise permanently give the Equipment to anyone else.
If there's a different SIM in the phone than the one sold (or used on that account) then that would indicate that the equipment is used by someone else. Making a leap like you have would not hold up in court. |
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#59 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 249
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No, it would indicate that there's a different SIM in the phone.
Making a leap like you have would not hold up in court. I'm not a lawyer and if one ever gets to court I guess we we will know if it would stand up or not. |
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#60 |
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Join Date: Jul 2002
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I expect EE will find it won't stand up in court.
EE deserves to protect its investment (as in the subsidy) and keep losses down, that other subscribers will have to pay for, but it still has to be enforceable. |
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#61 |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,545
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I expect EE will find it won't stand up in court.
EE deserves to protect its investment (as in the subsidy) and keep losses down, that other subscribers will have to pay for, but it still has to be enforceable. |
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#62 |
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bristol (BBC1 West)
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It would indicate that there's a different SIM in the phone that you legally do not own, not sure how you could not interpret that as a breach of that clause. In reality if you continue to make your payments, EE couldn't give a flying frack what you do with your phone. It would only be when you don't pay and can't return the handset that it could be used as evidence of what you've done with it. If you have indeed sold it to another EE user, it would also tell them who, where they could then get the additional evidence that it had actually been sold.
I'm not a lawyer and if one ever gets to court I guess we we will know if it would stand up or not. Quote:
I'm pretty sure it would be legal, if the goods are worth more than the amount the consumer had paid to date and those were the terms under which the contract was taken out then it would be enforcible, the same as hire-purchase agreements are. Under hire-purchase you cannot sell the goods, must keep them in good condition etc.
The networks have never had clauses like these before because they put them in dodgy legal territory. It becomes possible to argue that in the event that there's something wrong with the device (which could be something like a software flaw) to argue that the contract should be cancelled without penalty to the customer. |
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#63 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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I assumed that we were talking about someone who IS paying the bill.
But it's not a hire purchase, nor is it a loan or rental. The networks have never had clauses like these before because they put them in dodgy legal territory. It becomes possible to argue that in the event that there's something wrong with the device (which could be something like a software flaw) to argue that the contract should be cancelled without penalty to the customer. I fail to see any term in there that is not legal and I can't point to any legislation that makes that contract unfair. You get given the phone up front without having paid the retail cost and for the 1st 6 months it sell belongs to the operator, simple, just like the sim card technically remains the property of the network in all mobile network's contracts. All a credit agreement is is a contract, and consumer laws on faulty goods will still apply to this EE contract. |
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#64 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Swansea
Posts: 871
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Sorry to drag up an old thread, but interested to hear whether anyone has sold an EE phone in the first six months of contract since the t&cs changed and if so, was there any comeback from EE?
I got a HTC One M8 at the start of August and although its a lovely phone I'm just finding it too big, so I'm thinking of selling it and putting the money towards getting a Sony Z3 Compact instead. |
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#65 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 963
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Sorry to drag up an old thread, but interested to hear whether anyone has sold an EE phone in the first six months of contract since the t&cs changed and if so, was there any comeback from EE?
I got a HTC One M8 at the start of August and although its a lovely phone I'm just finding it too big, so I'm thinking of selling it and putting the money towards getting a Sony Z3 Compact instead. |
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#66 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 29
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A contract is a contract, it can have whatever terms the company wants in if you agree to it, the only terms are that it has to comply with the unfair contracts legislation and has to conform to consumer contract laws.
I fail to see any term in there that is not legal and I can't point to any legislation that makes that contract unfair. You get given the phone up front without having paid the retail cost and for the 1st 6 months it sell belongs to the operator, simple, just like the sim card technically remains the property of the network in all mobile network's contracts. All a credit agreement is is a contract, and consumer laws on faulty goods will still apply to this EE contract. Hopefully the following will set you a little bit straighter where B is concerned at least. Excuse the long post Regarding EE's T&C's; specifically they state: 3.13 You may get Equipment from Us when you take out a Price Plan. Unless We tell you otherwise, We will own any Equipment provided by Us for the first six months of the Minimum Term. During this time, You: 3.13.1 Cannot sell or otherwise permanently give the Equipment to anyone else. 3.13.2 Must take all reasonable care of the Equipment and keep it in reasonable condition (subject to usual wear and tear) as if You owned it; and 3.13.3 Cannot change or alter the Equipment, other than standard software updates and app purchases. 3.14 After six months of the Minimum Term, and provided You have not broken any condition of this Agreement according to point 3.15 below, You will automatically own the Equipment. 3.15 If during the first six months of the Minimum Term, and before You get ownership of the Equipment provided to You by Us, you break any condition of this Agreement according to points 4.4.5 or 7.3.1, We may give You Written Notice to return the Equipment to Us. That's pretty clear then; nobody can argue otherwise..... Where do I start- not only would EE have trouble enforcing the above, but the T&C's are in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The above terms and conditions act as a conditional sales agreement. What is a conditional sales agreement you ask? A conditional sale agreement is an agreement which deals with the sale of goods to a consumer, but with a key difference from other completed contracts for the sale of goods. Namely, it involves the situation whereby a seller will sell the goods to a consumer but the title of the goods will be withheld until all of the payments for the goods have been made. You won’t own the goods until you've paid off all the instalments. When you’ve done this, the goods transfer to your ownership. This is called getting good title. And? So? Well the problem is the creation of conditional sale agreements in England and Wales are regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Your agreement must be in writing and contain specific information about the Act in order for it to be valid. Accordingly they must adhere to the following requirements: The agreement must be in writing The agreement must contain a statement that it is regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 The agreement must contain prescribed information including the following The Annual Percentage Rate of Interest (APR) The amount of credit The cash price The dates and amount of installations The agreement must follow a set format The agreement must give the debtor cancellation rights where the agreement is signed away from the trade premises of the Creditor. The cancellation rights must be clearly set out in the actual agreement The agreement must be in more than one part in order to enable copies of the agreement to be given to the debtor Also the agreement should contain a section Repossession: your rights telling you how much you need to have paid to stop the creditor taking the goods back without a court order (or your consent). This should be a third of the total amount payable under the agreement. If you have paid a third or more of the total amount payable, the goods become ‘protected goods’ and the creditor must go to court for an order for the goods to be returned unless you consent to the repossession. They cannot just come round and remove them (‘snatch them back’). If a creditor ‘snatches back’ goods without a court order and without your consent where a third or more has been paid, you are entitled to a refund of all the money you have paid under the agreement. Also, even if you have not paid more than a third of the total amount payable under the agreement, the creditor will need an order from the court, or your consent, to remove the goods from ‘any premises’ they are on. All companies that offer conditional sale agreements must be FCA authorised. If they are not, this is against the law and you should report them to Trading Standards or the FCA. Thus concludes my problem with regards to EE's purported 'ownership' of your goods- illegal and immoral. |
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