Originally Posted by tomee:
“Yes same here apart from LCN 791 is just called bid. ”
“Yes same here apart from LCN 791 is just called bid. ”
yes sorry, its me, both 23 & 791 are labelled bid.
Price Drop has been advising Freeview viewers to retune on 31 March 2014.
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I avoid doing retunes if I can because it saves me having to go through the channel list delete garbage like Price Drop TV.
Originally Posted by lotrjw:
“are they all low quality 540x576 channels though, as if so they could be planning to fit 4 SD channels to 1 HD channel?”
“are they all low quality 540x576 channels though, as if so they could be planning to fit 4 SD channels to 1 HD channel?”
They should be encoded in H.264/MPEG-4 AVC. If encoding performance is independent of resolution, it should be possible to fit five SD channels at full resolution in the space of one HD channel, since the 1920x1080 resolution has five times as many pixels as 720x576.
I say 'should be' as I haven't checked. Since they can only be received on DVB-T2 receivers, every UK DVB-T2 receiver supports AVC (since it's a requirement for Freeview HD), and channel carriage costs are likely to be related to bit rate used, I would expect them to be AVC rather than MPEG-2.
Originally Posted by kruador:
“They should be encoded in H.264/MPEG-4 AVC. If encoding performance is independent of resolution, it should be possible to fit five SD channels at full resolution in the space of one HD channel, since the 1920x1080 resolution has five times as many pixels as 720x576.
I say 'should be' as I haven't checked. Since they can only be received on DVB-T2 receivers, every UK DVB-T2 receiver supports AVC (since it's a requirement for Freeview HD), and channel carriage costs are likely to be related to bit rate used, I would expect them to be AVC rather than MPEG-2.”
“They should be encoded in H.264/MPEG-4 AVC. If encoding performance is independent of resolution, it should be possible to fit five SD channels at full resolution in the space of one HD channel, since the 1920x1080 resolution has five times as many pixels as 720x576.
I say 'should be' as I haven't checked. Since they can only be received on DVB-T2 receivers, every UK DVB-T2 receiver supports AVC (since it's a requirement for Freeview HD), and channel carriage costs are likely to be related to bit rate used, I would expect them to be AVC rather than MPEG-2.”
Yes I did think that they would be AVC/MPEG 4 rather than MPEG 2, I didnt know you could get 5 SD channels at full 720x576 in in the space of one HD channel, but I suppose that will depend on how its been compressed.
I think that they only allocate 8Mb to HD channels in AVC/MPEG4 on a DVB-T2 MUX, I dont know how little they can get away to giving an SD channel, but if the other COM MUXs are anything to go by, I can imagine very little!
What about if they decide that as they are using AVC/MPEG4 encoding, that is essentially about twice as efficient as MPEG 2, that they decide that 1Mb each SD channel at 540x576 res is OK
! That would mean 8 SD channels to one HD channel then on the new MUXs!
Ch23 is now showing Shop with Bid, although according to the EPG it is Best Of Bid whilst Ch791 is still showing Shop with BID with the correct EPG.
Originally Posted by lotrjw:
“Yes I did think that they would be AVC/MPEG 4 rather than MPEG 2, I didnt know you could get 5 SD channels at full 720x576 in in the space of one HD channel, but I suppose that will depend on how its been compressed.
I think that they only allocate 8Mb to HD channels in AVC/MPEG4 on a DVB-T2 MUX, I dont know how little they can get away to giving an SD channel, but if the other COM MUXs are anything to go by, I can imagine very little!
What about if they decide that as they are using AVC/MPEG4 encoding, that is essentially about twice as efficient as MPEG 2, that they decide that 1Mb each SD channel at 540x576 res is OK! That would mean 8 SD channels to one HD channel then on the new MUXs!”
“Yes I did think that they would be AVC/MPEG 4 rather than MPEG 2, I didnt know you could get 5 SD channels at full 720x576 in in the space of one HD channel, but I suppose that will depend on how its been compressed.
I think that they only allocate 8Mb to HD channels in AVC/MPEG4 on a DVB-T2 MUX, I dont know how little they can get away to giving an SD channel, but if the other COM MUXs are anything to go by, I can imagine very little!
What about if they decide that as they are using AVC/MPEG4 encoding, that is essentially about twice as efficient as MPEG 2, that they decide that 1Mb each SD channel at 540x576 res is OK
! That would mean 8 SD channels to one HD channel then on the new MUXs!”
The SD channels on COM7 use MPEG4 audio and video, as is the norm for UK DVB-T2. While they could pack more SD channels in, it is of note that because the HD channels use the stat mux pool, they can potentially vary in bandwidth far more than the SD channels (because they use more bandwidth in the first place - they can go from 5 to 8 Mbps in a relatively short time, for example). Put too many SD channels in the same stat mux and there could be trouble when various services - especially when more than one HD channel needs more bandwidth, unless the stat mux is carefully regulated.
When the BBC advised the 5th HD slot, if I remember correctly, they mentioned it could be used for 3 SD channels. With 3/4 resolution, more is possible - fortunately most the channels on COM7 have a lot of static camera shots that don't eat up a lot of bandwidth (news, shopping, classical concerts)...
Originally Posted by a516:
“The SD channels on COM7 use MPEG4 audio and video, as is the norm for UK DVB-T2. While they could pack more SD channels in, it is of note that because the HD channels use the stat mux pool, they can potentially vary in bandwidth far more than the SD channels (because they use more bandwidth in the first place - they can go from 5 to 8 Mbps in a relatively short time, for example). Put too many SD channels in the same stat mux and there could be trouble when various services - especially when more than one HD channel needs more bandwidth, unless the stat mux is carefully regulated.
When the BBC advised the 5th HD slot, if I remember correctly, they mentioned it could be used for 3 SD channels. With 3/4 resolution, more is possible - fortunately most the channels on COM7 have a lot of static camera shots that don't eat up a lot of bandwidth (news, shopping, classical concerts)...”
“The SD channels on COM7 use MPEG4 audio and video, as is the norm for UK DVB-T2. While they could pack more SD channels in, it is of note that because the HD channels use the stat mux pool, they can potentially vary in bandwidth far more than the SD channels (because they use more bandwidth in the first place - they can go from 5 to 8 Mbps in a relatively short time, for example). Put too many SD channels in the same stat mux and there could be trouble when various services - especially when more than one HD channel needs more bandwidth, unless the stat mux is carefully regulated.
When the BBC advised the 5th HD slot, if I remember correctly, they mentioned it could be used for 3 SD channels. With 3/4 resolution, more is possible - fortunately most the channels on COM7 have a lot of static camera shots that don't eat up a lot of bandwidth (news, shopping, classical concerts)...”
Yes you are right on both points, I think due to lots of static camera shots (and especially the current SD channels!) they might try to pack in some more! maybe not 8 at 1 Mb each though!
Originally Posted by kruador:
“I say 'should be' as I haven't checked. Since they can only be received on DVB-T2 receivers, every UK DVB-T2 receiver supports AVC (since it's a requirement for Freeview HD), and channel carriage costs are likely to be related to bit rate used, I would expect them to be AVC rather than MPEG-2.”
“I say 'should be' as I haven't checked. Since they can only be received on DVB-T2 receivers, every UK DVB-T2 receiver supports AVC (since it's a requirement for Freeview HD), and channel carriage costs are likely to be related to bit rate used, I would expect them to be AVC rather than MPEG-2.”
Some technical info for the price-drop video stream on COM7 for anyone interested:
Type: Video
Original ID: 801
Codec: H264 - MPEG-4 AVC (part 10) (h264)
Resolution: 544x576
Frame rate: 25
Decoded format: Planar 4:2:0 YUV
Originally Posted by epsilon:
“Some technical info for the price-drop video stream on COM7 for anyone interested:
Type: Video
Original ID: 801
Codec: H264 - MPEG-4 AVC (part 10) (h264)
Resolution: 544x576
Frame rate: 25
Decoded format: Planar 4:2:0 YUV”
“Some technical info for the price-drop video stream on COM7 for anyone interested:
Type: Video
Original ID: 801
Codec: H264 - MPEG-4 AVC (part 10) (h264)
Resolution: 544x576
Frame rate: 25
Decoded format: Planar 4:2:0 YUV”
I kind of expected it to be 544x576 res!
Originally Posted by a516:
“With 3/4 resolution, more is possible - fortunately most the channels on COM7 have a lot of static camera shots that don't eat up a lot of bandwidth (news, shopping, classical concerts)...”
“With 3/4 resolution, more is possible - fortunately most the channels on COM7 have a lot of static camera shots that don't eat up a lot of bandwidth (news, shopping, classical concerts)...”
Null packets on COM7 are currently averaging 13.65 Mbps or 35.6% of the multiplex capacity. So quite a lot of space available for adding more 3/4 res junk SD channels.
Bitrates on COM7, including price drop
http://en.digitalbitrate.com/dtv.php...ng=en&mux=COM7
Look at the headroom on COM7, compared to BBCB. 13.4Mb/s nulls on COM7, 3.1Mb/s nulls on BBCB. That makes room for 2 more HD channels.
http://en.digitalbitrate.com/dtv.php...ng=en&mux=COM7
Look at the headroom on COM7, compared to BBCB. 13.4Mb/s nulls on COM7, 3.1Mb/s nulls on BBCB. That makes room for 2 more HD channels.
Originally Posted by epsilon:
“Null packets on COM7 are currently averaging 13.65 Mbps or 35.6% of the multiplex capacity. So quite a lot of space available for adding more 3/4 res junk SD channels.”
“Null packets on COM7 are currently averaging 13.65 Mbps or 35.6% of the multiplex capacity. So quite a lot of space available for adding more 3/4 res junk SD channels.”
So I wonder how many they will try and pack in? Could they say do 10 more SD channels at 1Mb each, getting round the stat MUXing for them, by capping them at 1 MB each before they get to the MUX?
Originally Posted by lotrjw:
“So I wonder how many they will try and pack in? Could they say do 10 more SD channels at 1Mb each, getting round the stat MUXing for them, by capping them at 1 MB each before they get to the MUX?”
“So I wonder how many they will try and pack in? Could they say do 10 more SD channels at 1Mb each, getting round the stat MUXing for them, by capping them at 1 MB each before they get to the MUX?”
Don't give them any ideas about capping at 1 Mbps. Price-drop's video bitrate is currently averaging 1.35 Mbps with Al Jazeera Arabic averaging 1.5 Mbps.
Weren't we expecting two HD channels from Channel 4? Won't that be the main component of the remaining space?
Originally Posted by AngusMast:
“Weren't we expecting two HD channels from Channel 4? Won't that be the main component of the remaining space?”
“Weren't we expecting two HD channels from Channel 4? Won't that be the main component of the remaining space?”
COM8.
Originally Posted by epsilon:
“Don't give them any ideas about capping at 1 Mbps. Price-drop's video bitrate is currently averaging 1.35 Mbps with Al Jazeera Arabic averaging 1.5 Mbps.”
“Don't give them any ideas about capping at 1 Mbps. Price-drop's video bitrate is currently averaging 1.35 Mbps with Al Jazeera Arabic averaging 1.5 Mbps.”
I wouldn't trust the figure of 1.5 for price drop because it has not been on air the whole day, the figure on the table of all the channels is 2.2 and the last 40 readings average 2.5
Originally Posted by AngusMast:
“I wouldn't trust the figure of 1.5 for price drop because it has not been on air the whole day, the figure on the table of all the channels is 2.2 and the last 40 readings average 2.5”
“I wouldn't trust the figure of 1.5 for price drop because it has not been on air the whole day, the figure on the table of all the channels is 2.2 and the last 40 readings average 2.5
”
I don't intend to sample the bitrates over a full 24 hour period. The figures I quoted are from when I started the sample. The bitrates varied somewhat before settling down to the averages I quoted. The averages are currently running at 1.35 for price-drop, so no change there, and 1.49 for Al Jazeera Arabic. The average bitrates have remained fairly stable for the last hour.
Originally Posted by epsilon:
“Don't give them any ideas about capping at 1 Mbps. Price-drop's video bitrate is currently averaging 1.35 Mbps with Al Jazeera Arabic averaging 1.5 Mbps.”
“Don't give them any ideas about capping at 1 Mbps. Price-drop's video bitrate is currently averaging 1.35 Mbps with Al Jazeera Arabic averaging 1.5 Mbps.”
Originally Posted by AngusMast:
“I wouldn't trust the figure of 1.5 for price drop because it has not been on air the whole day, the figure on the table of all the channels is 2.2 and the last 40 readings average 2.5”
“I wouldn't trust the figure of 1.5 for price drop because it has not been on air the whole day, the figure on the table of all the channels is 2.2 and the last 40 readings average 2.5
”
Originally Posted by epsilon:
“I don't intend to sample the bitrates over a full 24 hour period. The figures I quoted are from when I started the sample. The bitrates varied somewhat before settling down to the averages I quoted. The averages are currently running at 1.35 for price-drop, so no change there, and 1.49 for Al Jazeera Arabic. The average bitrates have remained fairly stable for the last hour.”
“I don't intend to sample the bitrates over a full 24 hour period. The figures I quoted are from when I started the sample. The bitrates varied somewhat before settling down to the averages I quoted. The averages are currently running at 1.35 for price-drop, so no change there, and 1.49 for Al Jazeera Arabic. The average bitrates have remained fairly stable for the last hour.”
I dont want to give them ideas about capping bitrates, but the MUX operator is the same as the one for COMs 5 and 6 and they cram the channels in on there, without any intervention from me, so whats the bet they will if they get the demand for them?
Originally Posted by lotrjw:
“I dont want to give them ideas about capping bitrates, but the MUX operator is the same as the one for COMs 5 and 6 and they cram the channels in on there, without any intervention from me, so whats the bet they will if they get the demand for them?”
“I dont want to give them ideas about capping bitrates, but the MUX operator is the same as the one for COMs 5 and 6 and they cram the channels in on there, without any intervention from me, so whats the bet they will if they get the demand for them?”
That's the problem. Many people assumed that using DVB-T2 would allow these channels to be crammed in at a higher resolution, possibly ending the days of 3/4 res. channels. Unfortunately, Arqiva is demonstrating that 3/4 res. is alive and well and that DVB-T2 can be used to cram even more low-res. garbage onto a multiplex.
It's quite sad that whenever I hear the name 'Arqiva' mentioned, I immediately think of low resolution, low bitrate tv channels. 
A separate stat Mux pool can be set up for the SD services on COM 7 but you've then got a bit of extra bandwidth creating 2x pools. It's a balancing game in that respect, I hope they don't cram a 6th service in HD on COM7 as it's a slippery slope in terms of quality.
The same is true with the BBC sadly!
Originally Posted by Mickey_T:
“It's quite sad that whenever I hear the name 'Arqiva' mentioned, I immediately think of low resolution, low bitrate tv channels.”
“It's quite sad that whenever I hear the name 'Arqiva' mentioned, I immediately think of low resolution, low bitrate tv channels.
”
The same is true with the BBC sadly!
Originally Posted by M60:
“A separate stat Mux pool can be set up for the SD services on COM 7 but you've then got a bit of extra bandwidth creating 2x pools. It's a balancing game in that respect, I hope they don't cram a 6th service in HD on COM7 as it's a slippery slope in terms of quality.
The same is true with the BBC sadly!”
“A separate stat Mux pool can be set up for the SD services on COM 7 but you've then got a bit of extra bandwidth creating 2x pools. It's a balancing game in that respect, I hope they don't cram a 6th service in HD on COM7 as it's a slippery slope in terms of quality.
The same is true with the BBC sadly!”
The BBC arent low res and their main SD channels (BBC 1 , 2 and 3, 4 and Kids to some extent) are the best around! OK the HD channels may not be perfect but they really arent that bad and most other HD channels are crammed on transponders at 5 or more a go on Sky.
ITV might actually be the best with HD on Dsat now on their DVB-S2 TP!
Originally Posted by a516:
“bid: new broadcast hours 08:00 - 00:00.”
“bid: new broadcast hours 08:00 - 00:00.”
Community Channel: new broadcasting hours 03:00 - 08:00.
The 00:00 - 03:00 slot therefore becomes spare capacity. Add this to the 03:00 - 00:00 slot recently used for BBC RB 302 and a new 24 hour slot is created on Arqiva A.
Interesting!
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