I see cannons! Cannons everywhere!
What do you see a cannon
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My own personal feelings on this are that anything that is distributed freely by the BBC is to be taken as the main continuity.
Anything one has to buy is superfluous, and to be treated as a fun addition, but not to be taken seriously. I like the books, and audios, but I don't feel I should have to shell out above and beyond the licence fee to fill missing blanks. Webisodes and extras are distributed on the official pages, so they are included in my continuity!
Anything one has to buy is superfluous, and to be treated as a fun addition, but not to be taken seriously. I like the books, and audios, but I don't feel I should have to shell out above and beyond the licence fee to fill missing blanks. Webisodes and extras are distributed on the official pages, so they are included in my continuity!
Originally Posted by sebbie3000:
“My own personal feelings on this are that anything that is distributed freely by the BBC is to be taken as the main continuity.
Anything one has to buy is superfluous, and to be treated as a fun addition, but not to be taken seriously. I like the books, and audios, but I don't feel I should have to shell out above and beyond the licence fee to fill missing blanks. Webisodes and extras are distributed on the official pages, so they are included in my continuity!”
“My own personal feelings on this are that anything that is distributed freely by the BBC is to be taken as the main continuity.
Anything one has to buy is superfluous, and to be treated as a fun addition, but not to be taken seriously. I like the books, and audios, but I don't feel I should have to shell out above and beyond the licence fee to fill missing blanks. Webisodes and extras are distributed on the official pages, so they are included in my continuity!”
I agree. As I see it, stuff from the TV continuity makes it into the books, comics and audios, but never the other way round. I don't really count a bit of occasional namedropping. For instance, if Steven Moffat hadn't written in the names of the 8th Doctor's companions from the BF audios in The Night of the Doctor, he could just have easily made up some of his own and it wouldn't have made any real difference whatsoever.
Originally Posted by Simon_Foston:
“The Doctor Who "canon" consists of the TV series and nothing else, because there is no widespread consensus as to what else should be in it. The word "canon" implies universal agreement, which is why I consider the idea of a "personal canon" to be nonsensical. I'm hardly likely to disagree with myself about what Doctor Who consists of and what it doesn't. My opinion, though, is that if a character, setting or storyline forms a significant part of a TV serial, and isn't just fleetingly referred to as in the case of the 8th Doctor's BF companions in The Night of the Doctor, then he, she or it can be considered "canon." I suspect that the TV writers will never use anything from books, comics or audios in any significant way, so they'll never be canon.”
“The Doctor Who "canon" consists of the TV series and nothing else, because there is no widespread consensus as to what else should be in it. The word "canon" implies universal agreement, which is why I consider the idea of a "personal canon" to be nonsensical. I'm hardly likely to disagree with myself about what Doctor Who consists of and what it doesn't. My opinion, though, is that if a character, setting or storyline forms a significant part of a TV serial, and isn't just fleetingly referred to as in the case of the 8th Doctor's BF companions in The Night of the Doctor, then he, she or it can be considered "canon." I suspect that the TV writers will never use anything from books, comics or audios in any significant way, so they'll never be canon.”
But Moffat did use the names of 8th Doctor's companion's in TNOTD giving us that crossover point anyway. I am the first one to agree that there is some audio stories that completely diverge from Doctor Who lore ("Orbis" is my first pick) but there are many that are straight out continuations of TV stories too.
The TV Series could only show so many days of the adventures of the Doctor. The audios were supposed to help fill in some of the blanks of those days. They tried to stay true to the Doctor and a continuation of the TV series.
Originally Posted by Tom Tit:
“I see cannons! Cannons everywhere!”
“I see cannons! Cannons everywhere!”
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd & thunder'd
Originally Posted by Simon_Foston:
“The Doctor Who "canon" consists of the TV series and nothing else, because there is no widespread consensus as to what else should be in it. The word "canon" implies universal agreement, which is why I consider the idea of a "personal canon" to be nonsensical. I'm hardly likely to disagree with myself about what Doctor Who consists of and what it doesn't. My opinion, though, is that if a character, setting or storyline forms a significant part of a TV serial, and isn't just fleetingly referred to as in the case of the 8th Doctor's BF companions in The Night of the Doctor, then he, she or it can be considered "canon." I suspect that the TV writers will never use anything from books, comics or audios in any significant way, so they'll never be canon.”
“The Doctor Who "canon" consists of the TV series and nothing else, because there is no widespread consensus as to what else should be in it. The word "canon" implies universal agreement, which is why I consider the idea of a "personal canon" to be nonsensical. I'm hardly likely to disagree with myself about what Doctor Who consists of and what it doesn't. My opinion, though, is that if a character, setting or storyline forms a significant part of a TV serial, and isn't just fleetingly referred to as in the case of the 8th Doctor's BF companions in The Night of the Doctor, then he, she or it can be considered "canon." I suspect that the TV writers will never use anything from books, comics or audios in any significant way, so they'll never be canon.”
I think, as you say, personal canon is a bit irrelevant but, IMO, the important thing when talking about Canon is what the current production team consider Canon. It determines whether we can legitimately complain about them breaking continuity or not, which is, of course, vital to any Doctor Who fan
It can also be useful to know because sometimes the TV show may drop clues or hints about certain unresolved mysteries and if these hints might be affected by other things (such, as whether the Doctor is half-human, for example) we would better be able to draw valid conclusions from those hints if we knew whether these things, as raised in other forms of media, were Canon or not.
Now it seems pretty certain that the TV Movie is Canon because Paul McGann as the 8th Doctor is Canon so, personally, I consider the half-human thing to be Canon even though I expect it to be too much of a hot potato to ever be explicitly referenced.
I don't think the audios are Canon as such, only because I don't expect the production team to have an encylopedic knowledge of their continuity or want to shackle themselves too heavily in an attempt to conform to it but I suspect that a lot of the team are fond of the audios and have no particular agenda to contradict them.
I know this 'half-human' thing is a bit of a controversy....I hated it at first too!!
But when you think about it - it could explain why he is so passionate about the planet Earth and he acts quite human (not pompous-like as Time-Lords are!). He is also quite vulnerable at times and shows emotions. And his regenerations are always erratic to say the least! Look at Time-lady Romana - she easily regenerated several times within minutes to find the right look!
Just a thought.....
But when you think about it - it could explain why he is so passionate about the planet Earth and he acts quite human (not pompous-like as Time-Lords are!). He is also quite vulnerable at times and shows emotions. And his regenerations are always erratic to say the least! Look at Time-lady Romana - she easily regenerated several times within minutes to find the right look!
Just a thought.....
How could the BF audios, apart from McGann's be canon?
What I don't get is how Colin's Doctor had companions like Evelyn Smythe and Bernice Summerfield. There is no way he could have had those. They wouldn't have fitted in with the TV stories whatsoever.
There couldn't have been any way for them to appear, cos of the way JNT did things back then.
So, no. Apart from Paul McGann's era, which we haven't seen most of, the other DW audios can't be classed as canon. Just a bit of 'fun' for the fans to enjoy when the series isn't on telly.
What I don't get is how Colin's Doctor had companions like Evelyn Smythe and Bernice Summerfield. There is no way he could have had those. They wouldn't have fitted in with the TV stories whatsoever.
There couldn't have been any way for them to appear, cos of the way JNT did things back then.
So, no. Apart from Paul McGann's era, which we haven't seen most of, the other DW audios can't be classed as canon. Just a bit of 'fun' for the fans to enjoy when the series isn't on telly.
Originally Posted by tiggerpooh:
“How could the BF audios, apart from McGann's be canon?”
“How could the BF audios, apart from McGann's be canon?”
Most Doctors had times between companions where other adventures could have been spawned. I believe the Big Finish audios were always pretty careful to set things chronologically in gaps that would work.
Of course a lot of the audios are still with the original cast: there have been Peter Davison ones with Nyssa, Tegan and Turlough, for example and, recently Tom Baker, K9 and Romana.
I don't think there is any discontinuity there.
I also wouldn't just dismiss them as a bit of fun. They are excellent pieces of drama starring the same actors from the original show, continuing and developing the characters of both the Doctors and the Companions. For many years they were the only source of new Who and the original actors lent them the weight of authenticity. They fully deserve to be Canon, IMO. I don't expect them to be stated as such by the production team so I wouldn't consider them official Canon, necessarily, but they fit perfectly well into the chronology of the series as far as I'm concerned.
Originally Posted by Thrombin:
“I don't think the audios are Canon as such, only because I don't expect the production team to have an encylopedic knowledge of their continuity or want to shackle themselves too heavily in an attempt to conform to it but I suspect that a lot of the team are fond of the audios and have no particular agenda to contradict them.”
“I don't think the audios are Canon as such, only because I don't expect the production team to have an encylopedic knowledge of their continuity or want to shackle themselves too heavily in an attempt to conform to it but I suspect that a lot of the team are fond of the audios and have no particular agenda to contradict them.”
Indeed, I'm sure there's a huge amount of respect for them - they draw some pretty hefty acting talent, after all. Alex MacQueen as the Master is just something I would love to see on TV, for example. I agree that the TV production team probably doesn't want to contradict them, but I suspect that if a really strong script were to come along that did, e.g. based on Romana being in E-Space all this time after all and not becoming Lady President of Gallifrey, if the showrunner liked it enough they would go ahead and do it.
Thus us an interesting question as I really do feel Whovuans pick and chose.
Eg I'm happy to consider Lungbarrow canon but not too keen on the half human side of things.
I don't consider Peter Cushing as canon.
Also I consider the audios canon too... where I see fit!
Eg I'm happy to consider Lungbarrow canon but not too keen on the half human side of things.
I don't consider Peter Cushing as canon.
Also I consider the audios canon too... where I see fit!
Originally Posted by comedyfish:
“Thus us an interesting question as I really do feel Whovuans pick and chose.”
“Thus us an interesting question as I really do feel Whovuans pick and chose.”
I see the other media as completely separate interpretations of the same concept, in pretty much the same way as the Red Dwarf TV series and the Red Dwarf novels, or all the different versions of Dracula. I have a sneaking suspicion that as vague as they are about it, that's the way the writers see it too.
Quote:
“Eg I'm happy to consider Lungbarrow canon but not too keen on the half human side of things.”
“Eg I'm happy to consider Lungbarrow canon but not too keen on the half human side of things.”
Now I don't, as Lungbarrow and the books leading up to it do some pretty major stuff with the back stories of the Doctor and Gallifrey, and if the production team regarded that as canon I would expect some acknowledgement or references. Instead I would say it's either been ignored or outright contradicted, e.g. by references to the Doctor and Master's fathers, mothers, children and grandchildren. I'm glad about that personally.
My own personal canon includes everything: all the shows, all the audios, all the novels, all the short stories, all the comic books, even many of the unofficial productions. To me it doesn't matter if established facts and events in Doctor Who contradict each other, because alterations to the past are an inherent part of the plot and the Who universe. We've seen the past altered many times on the show and many, many times in tie-in media, sometimes with really dramatic results.
As 11 said in the Good Night minisode: "Everyone's got memories of a holiday they couldn't have been on or a party they never went to. Or met someone for the first time and felt like they've known them all their lives. Time is being rewritten all around us, every day. People thin ktheir memories are bad, but their memories are fine. The past really is like that." - I love that quote. I think it might actually be true.
So, it's all a matter of what you choose to watch, read or listen to. Personally, I'm a big fan of the novels and audios but don't much bother with the comic books and short stories. That's simply what I prefer to spend my time on, rather than anything to do with what I view as canon.
As 11 said in the Good Night minisode: "Everyone's got memories of a holiday they couldn't have been on or a party they never went to. Or met someone for the first time and felt like they've known them all their lives. Time is being rewritten all around us, every day. People thin ktheir memories are bad, but their memories are fine. The past really is like that." - I love that quote. I think it might actually be true.
So, it's all a matter of what you choose to watch, read or listen to. Personally, I'm a big fan of the novels and audios but don't much bother with the comic books and short stories. That's simply what I prefer to spend my time on, rather than anything to do with what I view as canon.
Originally Posted by Thrombin:
“Except that the McGann Movie isn't an episode of the TV Series and neither are the webisodes but I would hazard a guess that the current production team consider them canon (half-human Doctors, not withstanding)
Plus the Sarah Jane Adventures, K9 & Company and Torchwood are probably considered Canon.
I think there are two types of Canon. Canon to the production team (which is all the classic and new Doctor Who episodes along with the webisodes, the McGann Movie and the spin-offs) and then there's the rest which is too varied and contradictory to all belong to the same Canon but which is fair game for anyone who wants to view them as such.
Personally I view the Big Finish audios as Canon but not the books since I've heard all the audios and read none of the books! It was nice to hear a link to the audios in Night of the Doctor but I wouldn't read it as confirmation that all the audios are now the first type of Canon. That would just be wishful thinking on my part”
“Except that the McGann Movie isn't an episode of the TV Series and neither are the webisodes but I would hazard a guess that the current production team consider them canon (half-human Doctors, not withstanding
)Plus the Sarah Jane Adventures, K9 & Company and Torchwood are probably considered Canon.
I think there are two types of Canon. Canon to the production team (which is all the classic and new Doctor Who episodes along with the webisodes, the McGann Movie and the spin-offs) and then there's the rest which is too varied and contradictory to all belong to the same Canon but which is fair game for anyone who wants to view them as such.
Personally I view the Big Finish audios as Canon but not the books since I've heard all the audios and read none of the books! It was nice to hear a link to the audios in Night of the Doctor but I wouldn't read it as confirmation that all the audios are now the first type of Canon. That would just be wishful thinking on my part
”
Regarding Torchwood, I'm not sure if 'Miracle day' fits in well with the established history of Dr Who... I'm pretty sure people like Amy/Rory etc would have remember that time when no-one died..
How that big massive thing sits going through the centre of the earth whilst there also should be the Racnoss there..
My position is basically that if it was broadcast in a way that forms part of the TV timeline - i.e., part of a series, rather than a skit or whatever - it happened to the Doctor. If it wasn't, it only might have happened to the Doctor.
More specifically, I'd say the bits outside the main show are the stories people tell about him. They might be based on truth, they might be perfect accounts, they might be tripe - but there's this bloke in a bar in Starfall swears blind it's true...
More specifically, I'd say the bits outside the main show are the stories people tell about him. They might be based on truth, they might be perfect accounts, they might be tripe - but there's this bloke in a bar in Starfall swears blind it's true...
Originally Posted by starsailor:
“Regarding Torchwood, I'm not sure if 'Miracle day' fits in well with the established history of Dr Who... I'm pretty sure people like Amy/Rory etc would have remember that time when no-one died..
How that big massive thing sits going through the centre of the earth whilst there also should be the Racnoss there..”
“Regarding Torchwood, I'm not sure if 'Miracle day' fits in well with the established history of Dr Who... I'm pretty sure people like Amy/Rory etc would have remember that time when no-one died..
How that big massive thing sits going through the centre of the earth whilst there also should be the Racnoss there..”
I am quite happy to remove Miracle Day from my personal canon as I really disliked it but, to be fair, continuity problems are not necessarily a reason to remove something from Canon (there are plenty of continuity problems throughout just the standard Classic series!).
I suppose if Miracle Day was not under the auspices of the BBC then that could be a reason for not treating it as Canon but, if it was, then I think we should assume it's official canon even if there are continuity issues.
Originally Posted by Thrombin:
“I am quite happy to remove Miracle Day from my personal canon as I really disliked it but, to be fair, continuity problems are not necessarily a reason to remove something from Canon (there are plenty of continuity problems throughout just the standard Classic series!).
I suppose if Miracle Day was not under the auspices of the BBC then that could be a reason for not treating it as Canon but, if it was, then I think we should assume it's official canon even if there are continuity issues.”
“I am quite happy to remove Miracle Day from my personal canon as I really disliked it but, to be fair, continuity problems are not necessarily a reason to remove something from Canon (there are plenty of continuity problems throughout just the standard Classic series!).
I suppose if Miracle Day was not under the auspices of the BBC then that could be a reason for not treating it as Canon but, if it was, then I think we should assume it's official canon even if there are continuity issues.”
I don't care for it either as I think it's yet another example of RTD's over-reliance on mega scale paranormal crises, any one of which would surely have such repercussions that it would render 21st Century Earth totally unrecognizable as a story setting. I think it is unfortunately part of the canon (i.e. what TV writers might include in their scripts IMO) but I regard it as something that fell through the cracks in the universe and never re-occurred when the Doctor re-booted everything. In other words it happened and then it didn't.
Originally Posted by Simon_Foston:
“I
Now I don't, as Lungbarrow and the books leading up to it do some pretty major stuff with the back stories of the Doctor and Gallifrey, and if the production team regarded that as canon I would expect some acknowledgement or references. Instead I would say it's either been ignored or outright contradicted, e.g. by references to the Doctor and Master's fathers, mothers, children and grandchildren. I'm glad about that personally.”
“I
Now I don't, as Lungbarrow and the books leading up to it do some pretty major stuff with the back stories of the Doctor and Gallifrey, and if the production team regarded that as canon I would expect some acknowledgement or references. Instead I would say it's either been ignored or outright contradicted, e.g. by references to the Doctor and Master's fathers, mothers, children and grandchildren. I'm glad about that personally.”
well they might have done if the show wasn't axed.. but it was and I know that's what counts (and what you'll righty counter with)
Quote:
“Originally Posted by Simon_Foston
I
Now I don't, as Lungbarrow and the books leading up to it do some pretty major stuff with the back stories of the Doctor and Gallifrey, and if the production team regarded that as canon I would expect some acknowledgement or references. Instead I would say it's either been ignored or outright contradicted, e.g. by references to the Doctor and Master's fathers, mothers, children and grandchildren. I'm glad about that personally.”
“Originally Posted by Simon_Foston
I
Now I don't, as Lungbarrow and the books leading up to it do some pretty major stuff with the back stories of the Doctor and Gallifrey, and if the production team regarded that as canon I would expect some acknowledgement or references. Instead I would say it's either been ignored or outright contradicted, e.g. by references to the Doctor and Master's fathers, mothers, children and grandchildren. I'm glad about that personally.”
Originally Posted by comedyfish:
“well they might have done if the show wasn't axed.. but it was and I know that's what counts (and what you'll righty counter with)”
“well they might have done if the show wasn't axed.. but it was and I know that's what counts (and what you'll righty counter with)”
That's pretty much the way I see it, yes. In this case I find it very convenient as I hate the whole 'Cartmel Masterplan' thing and am almost glad the series did get axed before they could ruin it further by bringing more of that stuff in. But it would be just the same for stuff that I liked that never got on TV and ended up in books or audios.
Originally Posted by Simon_Foston:
“I don't care for it either as I think it's yet another example of RTD's over-reliance on mega scale paranormal crises, any one of which would surely have such repercussions that it would render 21st Century Earth totally unrecognizable as a story setting. I think it is unfortunately part of the canon (i.e. what TV writers might include in their scripts IMO) but I regard it as something that fell through the cracks in the universe and never re-occurred when the Doctor re-booted everything. In other words it happened and then it didn't.”
“I don't care for it either as I think it's yet another example of RTD's over-reliance on mega scale paranormal crises, any one of which would surely have such repercussions that it would render 21st Century Earth totally unrecognizable as a story setting. I think it is unfortunately part of the canon (i.e. what TV writers might include in their scripts IMO) but I regard it as something that fell through the cracks in the universe and never re-occurred when the Doctor re-booted everything. In other words it happened and then it didn't.”
Yes, that Universe reboot is the ultimate get out of jail free card when it comes to continuity and unwriting stuff you don't like
Originally Posted by Thrombin:
“Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd & thunder'd
”
“Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd & thunder'd
”
Ha! Ha! Ha! Very funny!
Originally Posted by Thrombin:
“Yes, that Universe reboot is the ultimate get out of jail free card when it comes to continuity and unwriting stuff you don't like”
“Yes, that Universe reboot is the ultimate get out of jail free card when it comes to continuity and unwriting stuff you don't like
”
Yeah, but it's a bit unsatisfactory when you have more than one show. The doctors personal history remains as we know it, but anything and everything which happened in Torchwood may or may not have happened....
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