I have seen a couple of threads recently on how people think Series 5 is the best. That's their opinion, would never knock it, and it seemed bad form and bit party pooping to go into those threads and construct a counter argument when it's so positive.

So I thought I'd create this counter thread for those who don't like Series 5 like myself. I know it seems I bang on endlessly about my dislike of this Series and I know I'm not alone but have been very quiet about it recently but my views haven't changed.

I've rewatched this Series three or four times now and aside from the finale I have failed to see any signs of improvement on my original viewing.

For me, the whole of this Series bar The Eleventh Hour is flat. And I mean that. It's not exciting, it's not thrilling and watching some episodes like The Beast Below, Vampires of Venice and in particular Vincent And The Doctor, despite some thought provoking issues, is as interesting if not less interesting than watching paint dry. In other words, a big and snoozy snorefest!

Not only is the pace seriously off the mark most episodes but a lot of them are extremely boring in content as well, particularly the aforementioned episodes. Even now watching most of them, I find myself zoning out even more so than when I first watched them.

And the Series Arc was overused and too prominent in most stories rather than being there in the background. That's how I prefer it, like the Bad Wolf Arc in Series 1 where it was there and perhaps we didn't notice it until it was pointed out to us. I like the 'How did the hell did we miss it?' vibe to a Series. It was a similar thing with the blink and miss it thing with Rose the previous Season.

Yes, I know we had the whole thing in the Angels Story with the Doctor from the last episode and his jacket etc but that was just one thing. I was referring more to the Crack In Time thing that just dominated the whole Series(and beyond). For me it was too over the top and in our faces, I wanted to enjoy stories without it but it just seemed to be forever there(though I know it wasn't, but that's how it felt)

Then was Rory dying practically dying over and over again...Yawn!

Off course, there was some stuff to like. Amy's Choice was the only story aside the first and last episodes to stand out and perhaps the second part of the Silurian story....but that's it. And perhaps The Lodger. Oh, and Matt Smith off course, the biggest highlight of the Series and extremely funny in that episode.

Perhaps also the changes were too much too soon from the previous era that didn't help. That's why I think it's the poorest of all the Series of New Who so far.

So sorry for those who love the Series, but for me, it wasn't a patch on Series 4, it doesn't even come close. That's just my opinion, I know I'm in a minority but somebody had to break the lovefest for this Series that's been going on recently and decided it should be me!

Sorry, Series 5 is just so good I just had to challenge your counter-argument.

Not exciting? You and I must have some seriously different definitions of the word "exciting". Okay, I'll accept that the Silurian two-parter could be considered a little slow (but I considered that all in the spirit of the Pertwee era), but really? Time of Angels? Flesh and Stone? Vampires of Venice? The Lodger? The Pandorica Opens? All slow? I cannot see how. Compared to some of the rushed episodes in recent years such as The Power of Three and maybe Hide, I think the pacing of most Series 5 stories is nigh on perfect. None of them felt rushed to me and none of them (Silurian two-parter) felt over long and drawn out.
And the strength of Vincent and the Doctor is not it's fast-paced excitement, it's the human story it was trying to tell; the challenges of mental illness and depression and how even in the darkest of times there's always the hope that things can and will get better. I really appreciate these episodes which go beyond the usual saving the planet storylines and I think Vincent and the Doctor was one of the finest Doctor Who stories ever told.

I also disagree with your sentiments of the story arc. I don't consider the "Bad Wolf" or "Torchwood" arcs to even be story arcs. Saying a word once per episode does not a story arc make IMO. Series 5 on the other hand (IMO of course) had a mysterious story arc set up brilliantly with episode 1 which kept me wondering what was going to happen right up until the finale. It also had clear developments as the series progressed, but with the exception of Flesh and Stone I don't think it ever intruded too much into story of each week's episode; it only ever occupied at max 5 minutes in the middle or at the end of an episode. I think one of the series's best moments was when Cold Blood's plot was just about wrapped up and they were all about to escape when suddenly the crack appears, Rory gets killed and erased by the crack then the Doctor pulls out a chunk of the TARDIS from the crack and we realise that the explosion is going to be caused by the TARDIS. You think that particular week's story is over then in the space of just 5 minutes so many things happen and you're left desperate for the next episode.

Oh and on the subject of Rory dying; he died twice. Clara has died twice too. It's not that repetitive.

So, sorry about that counter counter argument...but it had to be done.

Well you have your views and I have mine. I don't agree with your opinion and I still think it's the worst Series by far. That's my counter counter argument!

I thought Series 5 is the best series probably because it came after a run of episodes which I thought was boring or extremely dreadful (apart from The Waters of Mars and I thought the Next Doctor was average) starting from The Stolen Earth and ending with The End of Time and it was nice to have episodes which I enjoy watching again.

I thought that the huge change in the series was brilliant I thought Doctor Who needed it.

I think Series 7 is the best, personally so I'll just stay quiet.

But yeah, I do think Series 5 is a bit overrated in places. I think the main thing going for it is the structure which is the same as RTD's, which was a very good structure. But some stories do fall below par. ( The Beast Below, Victory of the Daleks, Chibnall's two-parter...)
Eleventh Hour is my only real standout, as is Pandorica Opens.


I'd take Series 4 or Series 7 over it anyday!

For me none of the Matt/Moffat series overall have been a patch on any of the RTD series. Though I will admit that every series has it's standout episodes and 5-7 are certainly no exception to that

If Im forced to pick which is the best out of just the Matt series only, it is series 5. admittedly it has it's dull episodes, but that's true to one extent or the other on all of series 2-7 (not 1 though in my opinion), But the dull episodes are balanced by amys choice, the angels two parter, and moffats most structured arc and subsequent best finale to date. Still dosen't come close to series 1-4 but it's the best of a rather lesser bunch.

I have to agree. Although it has The Pandorica Opens (one of my all time favourite episodes), and a few other strong episodes it's always seemed 'flat' as you say. I don't know, there's just an emptiness about it that I can't quite specify.

Series 5 had the Eleventh Doctor.

Not the Eleventh Doctor 2.0 which arrived in Series 6.

I mostly agree. I can remember really looking forward to Moffat's Who as I thoroughly enjoyed most of his work during the RTD era, and after the abysmal End of Time I thought the show needed a refresh.

Then came series 5 and I thought "is this it?" It was like the life had sucked out of the show. It felt so drab and sterile. When it tried to be fun it was just cringeworthy, the fish fingers and custard scene in The Eleventh Hour was very childish, but as that was the first episode it could be forgiven. It wasn't the only time I found it cringeworthy though, most of Victory of the Daleks to me felt like a bad children's show (although I have found it less bad on repeat viewings, but that's not saying much still).

Both the Silurian and the Weeping Angels two-parters are some of the dullest, most forgettable stories since the relaunch. The Beast Below was just about watchable, but it's not an episode I am in a rush to watch again. Vampires of Venice was slightly better, but not all that much.

Amy's Choice was quite good although not a classic. The Lodger was one episode that managed to be fun without making me cringe. Vincent and The Doctor is enjoyable too, probably my favourite episode of this series.

The finale was a bit "meh" for me. Again I have appreciated it more on repeat viewings but still it's no favourite of mine.

So out of the entire series there was only a handful of episodes I would watch another time. The rest I would not be particularly bothered about if I never saw them again.

Thankfully Series 6 was a vast improvement despite a bit of a slow start. Series 7 is undoubtedly my favourite of Moffat's era so far though.

I didn't like series 5 and I didn't like series 6 either there were a few episodes I enjoyed but not many I prefered series 7 as I prefered Clara as an assistant but I haven't enjoyed Doctor Who that much since series 4 ended.

Exactly this!

RTD era didn't have arcs at all (except for Doctor-Rose romance), Season 6 is too arc-heavy and River story is too complicated IMO. Arcs in seasons 5 and 7 were perfect!

I read your comment and while I personally disagree with it, you articulate it well.

However...

How in the worl can you possibly class the opening two-parter for the series as 'a slow start'? Did you not watch them?

If anything, series 6 starts off at too hectic a pace and then can't immediately keep up - which is my only real crticism of any of the series' (aside from the under-use of Martha, then the triteness of shoving her back in in a later series).

I know we're all entitled to an opinion - but if that opinion is based on incorrect information, then it's wrong...

What's the value of these threads? Aren't there enough threads, buried in the archives, that just repeat the same pros and cons again and again?

Is it just to get it all out of your systems for another week?

We have been over this!

I agree with elements of both arguments for and against Series 5. For me it came on the back of the Specials which I did not enjoy very much, a disappointment after four series of well paced, quality individual stories and series arc's.
Series 5 had the task of continuing the quality and success of the program. A new production team, head writer with a new lead actor. I think it delivered in terms of a solid collection of stories, and yes like all series of Doctor Who there are some better than others. It had a fantastic opening episode which was great, I really liked Matt's doctor and the feel of that episode. The episodes that follow were not of the same quality and a little flat, I also found it hard to warm to Amy and Rory until the Amy's Choice episode. From the events in that story I started to like them more, particulary in the end two parter. Do agree Rory dying all the time became predictable therefore losing any dramatic impact.
The episodes generally were better towards the end, The Lodger being a nice change of
pace with its humour. The series finale I find to be a exciting thrilling piece of storytelling. So overall I think there are some stories I would always enjoy going back too, while there are some Beast Below, Victory of the Daleks which even on rewatching don't improve.
An aspect I do not think helped it are story arc's lasting three series, I much prefer a series contained arc which is built towards by tantilising the viewer and being revealed and concluded in the series finale. Eg. Saxon, Rose in Series 4. At least the crack story arc had a flow to it compared with what followed later.
All in all I find it of a good standard but not one of my favourites.

Season 5 had a really empty feeling for me. Its terribly clever but lacks heart and soul. I knew by the time they broadcast "The Beast Below" I was on dodgy ground with the new team, and by the end of the season I was feeling really deflated, especially after the highs of season 4.

I think out of the three seasons we had with Matt, I probably enjoyed season 6 the most in retrospect.

I'm a bit 50/50 on the subject. If a thread which was only created a week or two ago then it seems a bit soon to start a new thread on the same discussion.

BUT

If the last thread on the subject is months or even years old, then I think it's completely within reason to start a new discussion on the subject despite what is 'buried in the archives'.

After all, if you talked about something in real life, you wouldn't never talk about it again, and would probably bring up similar points in each subsequent conversation on the subject. That's just people.

Series 5 is the best!


End of discussion.

Just to say its great to see a counter view from you Daveyboy and its an entertaining thread which i'm enjoying reading.

It was interesting what you said that the arc was overused and too prominent. I guess it was about encouraging an element of commitment from the audience to have to tune in each week to follow the mystery & the new doctor. However I do think the crack was practically subtle compared to what came in series 6 !
(Prime example watching the pirate story again and Madame K pops up in a wall which spoils the flow each time for me).

You are possibly right though that maybe there were too many changes in Matts first series with the 'fairytale' style, direction, Doctor, cast and crew with what had gone before but I dont think S5 was boring as such because they did try to experiment with the format and writers with Amys Choice and Vincent

There were some less well written stories such as 'Venice' 'Beast Below' and 'Victory/Daleks' which didnt really capitalise on their full potential plot wise ( having really scary Smilers, better characterisation of the 'vampires' and having a better resolution to Bracewell as a bomb) so maybe there were some normal dips before the pace picked up with the 2 parter conclusion.

One things you didnt mention was the spiky new companion Amy who was a bit of a pain throughout the whole series and who I gladly would have dropped off in Scotland permanently in the second story

Series 6B would be better. Troughtons doctor set via the timelords to do secret missions.

Oh so we now have to post counter arguments in new threads eh? And its nothing to do with wanting one persons opinion to stand out and be heard louder that others is it? Of course not. Silly cynical me.

On topic. The best series of Doctor Who not just New Who. Made RTDs era for the most part look like SJA level television and Moffat hasn't come close to it since and never quite delivered on its promise. As CD93 alluded the Moffat era changed alot after this as did the Doctor. Not for the better either. Also nice to have the show being written and directed by people who genuinely knew their stuff when it comes to genre film and TV.

Hear Hear. The forums on a cycle of repeat ad nauseum at the moment. Roll on S8. Its like reading an out of date newspaper with a particular fixation on the same old subjects.

I'm gonna answer your post properly now I have time to do so.

As far as the slow stories go, I didn't say every story was slow but I think Vampires Of Venice was definitely that. The Angels two parter, definitely slow for me, especially the cave sequences, which bored me rigid and though they were supposed to convey menace, it just didn't come across for me I'm afraid. The Lodger definitely isn't slow and the finale has a nice pace about it but overall, the majority was as flat as a pancake. I do like slow stories, if I didn't, I'd never watch any of Classic Who! However, this was just dullness at it's very worst.

Human interest stories I really like. I love real life stories that have been shown in recent years like Ronnie Biggs, Lord Lucan and even stuff like behind the dramas of Steptoe and Son. That's what made an Adventure in Space and Time for me, it was Hartnell's struggles with the role that provokes empathy. And in Doctor Who itself, I enjoyed watching Mickey's journey from Zero to Hero throughout Series 1&2. Plus Donna's change from ranting bride to someone who really cared and had more depth to her character.

With Vincent and The Doctor I never felt any of that. With depression, it's a subject i particularly take interest in but it was lost in the dullness of the story and the way it came across on screen. It just didn't work for me.

As for the Bad Wolf thing, I'm afraid I have to disagree it wasn't a Series Arc. It was there all Series and without it we wouldn't have had the resolution we did with Rose so that's something we will have to agree to disagree on.


This is what I meant when I say everything is flat. That's how I feel. Comapred to RTD episodes, the pacier ones like Tooth and Claw and the slower ones like Father's Day, there is excitement and something to grab you, pull you in, and make you interested. I don't get that with many episodes in Series 5.

For me it's the execution of some stories on screen that are it's downfall and it's continued into Series 6 and 7 as well.


Usually Johnny, I'd agree with you.

However, I got tired of seeing two threads on Series 5, both which invited mainly positive comments and as I said at the top, it just seemed to me an opposite thread was needed to redress the balance. I very rarely start threads on the New Series so from a personal point of view, this is really a one-off!

And Lady Of Traken, I didn't mention Amy because I actually liked the character. oh, and the short skirts..........

You know me better than that SF!

I refer you to my answer to Johnny's post above. I don't like my opinion to heard louder than others, I was just inviting those who maybe were wary of posting in a positive thread to be able to give their opinions in an opposite thread.

For those who've read my posts over the years you know it's not something I often do but felt it necessary in this case. I'm happy for others to shout louder!

Im not sure how you arrive at that conclusion Animation Bush when there is 'The Time War' and ' The Last of The Timelords' arcs. Two arcs that not only dominate the RTD era but were also the cataltyst for the Doctors own personal character arcs over those 4 series. Two arcs that are still being used by Steven Moffat today.

Both are arcs have complelty defined the the New Who era and within them were the series contianed arcs, be them companion arcs or series finale placments teasers arcs such as Saxon and so on. Series contained arcs that, more often than not were part of the overall picture, the on going multi series arc of The Time War and Last of The Timelords.

The Moffat/Matt Smith era has also taken this approach of a wider multi series arc and arcs that appear within a contained series. However, for me I think the RTD era handled both style of story arcs far, far better in terms of exctiment, structure, storytelling and characterisation.

Whilst, again this is all imo, the Matt Smith/Moffat era's arcs contained some nice ideas and moments, the Hurt Doctor cliffhanger for example, but not a single arc over 3 series delivered in their conclusions, they all fell flat on their faces. Yes, It all looked wonderful but for this fan it had been the most shallow, shockingly characterised mess in the shows entire history and all because of the multi series arcs and self conatained arcs, all insufferably dull and in turn this had a huge knock on effect on the characters that were part of these arcs, the Doctor included imo.

I feel the RTD eras arcs, be them single series contained or over several series helped to expand characters. I found Moffats arcs confined the characters within walls, especially the Ponds. Outside of their arc they were nothing, barley functional cardboard cut outs. See the Ponds in Curse of the Blackspot and River Song...well...River Song full stop.





So, series 5 best of the Matt Smith era? certainly yes, by a mile. I havent seen it since broadcast, I did keep The Lodger recorded for a while though. Yet, I have no desire to and cannot bare to watch series 5. Not because I think it awful, Matt Smith is phenomenal, but because it pains me, in that fandom way, to think of the mess that followed it for series 6/7. How a show runner can take Matt Smiths wonderful work in series 5 and just throw it all up in the air in favour of one of THE poorest TV arcs and some of the most truly astonishing flat characterisation I have ever seen in the history of the show. This was deemed far more important than actually exploring what this brilliant young actor was truley capable of.