I agree with most of what you have said here, especially the parts in bold. It's mostly stuff i've said myself in one way or another in various posts, but you have articulated it here altogether better than I probably could have .

The only thing I will say though is I do rewatch series 5-7 episodes because there are some cracking individual stories therein, I just tend to ignore the arc stuff on rewatch, knowing it all turned out terribly in those series, and is not worth my time again.

Also even though I do rewatch series 5-7 episodes, I'm still more likely to choose a series 1-4 repeat to watch more often than the latter stuff, no matter how old they now are, and how many times I've seen them.

Series 1-4 was quality in individual and in arcs. I honestly don't understand how an era like the Matt Smith one, which set you up for a fall year after year, can be seen by some as better than 4 RTD series which set a premise and delivered a satisfying answer all finale year on year.

I genuinely hope Capaldi gets better material for the overall arc, but based on the evidence, I kind of doubt it. hoping to be proved wrong though.

Series 5 was the worst in the shows history IMO. no idea why its praised to the heavens on this forum. Amy was also awful in this series, yet she blossomed come series 6 and got even better during series 7A.

Quite the title.

Ooooh, that's interesting. And as a big admirer of Matt Smith, I'd like to discuss that some time. Good idea for a thread?

And not being remotely sarcy here. I think all of the Doctors have changed as they've gone along; by how they've been written, directed and how they've developed in the part as actors. Or usually a mixture of the three, as after the first few stories it seems to happen by some kind of osmosis. (pretentious, moi?)

I know a number of people who think Tom gave his freshest performances in his first year, and this seems to be mirrored by Matt. Possibly Peter D too. Yet whilst I think Hartnell is great from the off, I much prefer him in Season 2 on. Also think Colin, Sylvester and David were much better after their first series/season in the part.

This is massively Off Topic, sorry. The comment just got me thinking....

Or rambling, more like.

That did cross my mind, and for that reason I was dubious as to whether calling it a slow start was an accurate description to use. I would say then an uninteresting start. As you correctly point out series 6 has a very hectic start, a bit too hectic for my liking, which is quite the opposite to series 5.

The opening two-parter in particular was an overblown mess, IMO, it felt like there was a million things going at once. The whole arc around The Doctor's apparent death just seemed like a rehash of the basic plot outline for Turn Left to me. I didn't really care for it at all. The same with the River reveal a little later on, I had just stopped caring by that point.

Having said that I really enjoyed the second half of series 6 for the most part. I think at that stage Moffat's Who was finally starting to have some soul to it, and all in all I have been enjoying it ever since.

One day, we shall have this discussion Yes, one day.

Series 5 intrdduced a new companion and a new doctor . Storyline went back to the begining Amys wedding /cracks in wall to be neatly concluded in TBB. S6 started with the doctors "death" ,Amy,s "pregnancy" and Rivers true identity. Then it got a bit messy. We had parents who were not really parents. Would they really react that way to losing a daughter then having no relationship or contact with her as a adult ?. Especially after finding out she was the only "child" they were ever going to have. Not counting the adoption of Anthony in 1946.11 was married but not really married. He let her waste her short life in prison waiting for him to turn up for "dates" if he felt like it and remembered. Amy and Rory died, River dies then 11 sulks untill he meets his "impossible" Clara did I miss anything ?. Would have liked more consequences. 11 should have at least tried to stop River going to the library after the double tragedy in new york. We didn't even get to see the singing towers scene where he cries and gives her his screwdriver. Hope S8 has a storyline we can follow from begining to end.

I think 'messy' sums up the past four years of Who for me - messy story arcs, messy production, messy scheduling . . .

I don't see how Series 5 was messy. I thought it was almost perfectly put together (with the exception of the unresolved explanation as to how the TARDIS blew up).
Series 6 and 7 were a complete shambles, I'll give you that. I sincerely hope they've got their act together by now.

OK, you're right. I wanted to say that Bad Wolf, Torchwood, Stolen planets and Master storyline weren't arcs because:

Of course, last of the time lords and time war were arcs, but these are not related only to RTD era but to Moffat's too.

P.S. I am not 'Animation' Bush, but it sounds awesome!

I sometimes wonder if this is true or just something I seem to see, but it often looks like;

Those who dislike series 5 are big fans of series 4, and;

Those who are big fans of series 5, aren't that impressed with series 4.

Not sure how accurate that is on a large scale, but I often see signs of it in these sorts of thread. I know for me, I really love series 5 and only really VotD stands out as one I'm not too keen on. But I love the pacing, the individuals stories, the arc, the characters, the change in style. Pretty much all of it.

Conversely, series 4 often seem to be held in very high regard, yet I only really think it is ok with the odd stand-out episode. For instance, I detest "Partners in Crime," and "The Unicorn and the Wasp." There's stuff in those two episodes that made me cringe so much that it made me question why I even watched the show. I find the oft-praised "Midnight," to be a story with no third act and consequently feels like it goes nowhere. "Turn Left," also highly praised, but I always though that it was only Tate's surprisingly good performance that held up a bad story. As for the finale, it felt like it should have belonged in fan fiction with its overblown cast and the "towing the Earth home," moment is also one of those moments that made me cringe badly. To be honest, its only really the library two-parter that stood out at all for me.

But I note a lot of the people who disliked series 5 have mentioned how much of a let down it was after the brilliance of series 4. So it would seem there's a massive stylistic difference between the two.

Also, on another note; its often mentioned that the biggest problem with series 6 was that it was too arc-heavy. I just want to jump in and say I feel the complete opposite to this view. I think its biggest problem was that it lacked the courage to make the arc centre-stage for the whole series. It put forth a big arc with major revelations and consequences, but continued to flip-flop between that story and completely unrelated episodes that barely acknowledged that this massive arc was occurring. I think series 6 would have worked better with the story more evenly spread across the entire run - and no mid-series break to kill the momentum, too!

Though I disagree with your viewpoints of series 4 and 5, I do agree with your overall point about the stylistic differences between the two.

Putting my dislike of Series 5 aside for one moment and donning my Neutral Hat, I guess Series 5 will always be a controversial one which splits people right down the middle. As you say, there have been people who love Series 5 like yourself who welcomed the changes to the show and then there's people like me who've hated it and to a lesser degree still hate that style now. It's rare for people to like both Series though I'm sure there is fans of both out there.

Series 4 is not quite my fave Series but it's not far off. I think when I first watched it it did start of really slow and it took me a good four or five weeks to get into it. Partners In Crime I liked but as probably with you the Adipose I found just cringeworthy but the sudden appearance of Rose more than made up for that. The Ood and the Pompeii stories were below par for me, though the Ood story has improved on repeat viewing.

The following episodes were okay but it wasn't The Unicorn and The Wasp that the Series took off for me. The Library two-parter was okay but not Moffat's finest work during the RTD Era and then for me the last four episodes were just...wow!

Midnight was just a great example of how to do a tense drama on a small set. Turn Left wasn't just about Catherine Tate's performance, I thought the whole idea of the episode was just amazing and showed just how much The Doctor's help had saved Earth over and over again. It was a neat scenario that led nicely into the last two episodes.

The last two episodes just blew me away. Thrilling, exciting, edge of the seat stuff. I loved it-and for me, that's what I enjoy watching and that is why I find Series 5 so dull and boring at times because it didn't come anywhere near those last four episodes in terms of excitement, tension and drama. It just plodded along so painfully slow at times it was excruciating.

I do agree with you about series 6. The mid Series break did it no favours. There was no balance overall and we went from arc heavy to no arc at all hardly in the second half. Series 7 was an improvement again and I have enjoyed several more episodes within it but unfortunately I still have to suffer awful episodes like The Rings Of Akhaten.

In a way, that kinda sums it up for me. I didn't find those last four episodes full of excitement, tension and drama. I found them over-the-top and occasionally melodramatic. I also found the "modern day Earth gets invaded in big explosive finale" had been done to death at this point. So much so that I didn't expect to see people screaming in the streets, but rather going "oh look, another invasion by aliens."

Ok maybe not quite that blasé, but I think you get what I mean! I will give them kudos for the "Bad Wolf" cliffhanger at the end of Turn Left and the faux-regeneration at the end of The Stolen Earth were pretty gripping. I think a good cliffhanger was one of RTDs strengths.

Conversely, I liked it in series 5 that they had a lot more low-key stories and even when they did the big "end of the universe," stories like "The Pandorica Opens," didn't involve fleets of Daleks buzzing around modern-day London and getting planted all over the news!

Don't get me wrong, its not like I disliked series 4 or the previous RTD series. I am a fan - I just massively prefer series 5 over series 4.


No disagreement there! That is one of those episodes that I just really can't stand.

What does the OP mean by things he missed in season 1 that where obvious on rewatch? The I can't believe I missed that factor?

It was just a word being mentioned now and then. Unless I have missed something myself?

It really shows how much different types of stories appeal to different people. I love Classic Who's slower paced stories but after watching shows like Buffy, Angel and Superman etc, I got used to the dramatic Series Finales. You used to get them in old Soaps like Dallas and Dynasty too where you expected the last episode of a Series to be dramatic. That in my mind is what became the norm for me in most TV Series. The last episode should be dramatic and thrilling and stand out from the crowd. RTD picked up on that really well and all four of his finales were in line with my expectations though I wasn't so keen on the Series 3 one.

I will agree with you that the one thing Moffat has done to my satisfaction is get rid of the News Outlets which RTD vastly overused in the majority of his stories. It was okay to start with but then it really did get tedious after a while.

With Season 5, you hit the nail on the head with whole low key thing though I interpret that in a different way. Low key for me meant the show had lost it's buzz and energy. it's only when I watch previous episode during RTD's Era that I notice it more and more what's missing. However, I do have a more general liking now for the finale which though not ideal has come across much better on repeated viewing. I think if the rest of the Series(bar The Eleventh Hour) had come upto the standard of those last two episodes I would have enjoyed it hell of a lot more.


I don't believe I used the words 'obvious on rewatch.'. I said it was the blink and miss it thing, like Bad Wolf TV or the Helicopter Guy using Bad Wolf as his call signature.

I quite agree. For me, S5 is by far the weakest of NuWho. Though how much of that is down my loathing Amy, I'm not sure.

Sorry The correct order is IMO

Season 7 Part 1(And I'm lumping The Snowmen in here) - The Imminent departure of the Ponds, and the foreshadowing of Clara's Arrival, plus, Daleks, Dinosaurs, Angels, Rory's Dad, Unit, Ben Browder, every episode is a memorable hit and fun to watch.

Season 6 Epic quest, really makes the who-verse feel large scale, really Star Warsy feel. Has a dud with Night Terrors but the quantity of hits make up for it(Impossible Astronaut,Day of the Moon, Doctors Wife, A Good Man Goes To War, Lets Kill Hitler )

Season 5 Getting used to new characters, clever arc, has no duds relatively consistent

Season 7 Part 2 Feels like it wasted the first 6 Episodes, Stepped up its game with the Cybermen return onwards

I agree with most of this (Rings of Akhaten aside which I thought was a half decent story).
Whilst the stories were good, excellent even, in Series 6 (The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon, The Doctor's Wife, The God Complex and The Girl Who Waited are all top-notch) it was the rubbish structure of the series as a whole which prevents it from being my favourite. There was an arc heavy first part with a mid series finale (which in itself made the series seem even more broken and less coherent) then a second part with pretty much no story arc and the events of the first part being more or less forgotten about. Then it ended in a one-part finale. In my opinion, one-part finales do not work. This is something I think Moffat really needs to sort out.

Then we had Series 7 which was basically two separate series, each with a drastically reduced episode count sold to us as one series. Again, the individual episodes were still good, but the lack of structure really shone through. In fact, it was never more apparent that Moffat was just making it up as he went along. Take two consecutive episodes; Nightmare in Silver and Name of the Doctor. In the former, there is dialogue where the Cyber-planner mentions that the Doctor's brain has had "ten complete re-jigs" then in the very next episode, it is revealed that there is in fact an incarnation of the Doctor we'd never known about. Neil Gaiman would never have written that line if he had known what Moffat was planning. I personally believe for a well-structured television series, all writers should be aware of the main plot developments which are to happen. This quite clearly didn't happen.
Another example of this is, again, in Nightmare in Silver, the Doctor threatens to regenerate... however three episodes later it is revealed that the Doctor can no longer regenerate. This wouldn't have happened if Moffat wasn't making things up as he goes along.

Anyway, I'm hoping Series 8 should be a lot more focused and well structured. The lack of any two-parters so far is worrying, but there's still the chance of a two-part finale (and I'll reiterate: one-part finales do not work)

I really liked series five, not all of it but what was good was really amazing, the story arc was brilliant Moffet is a very gifted writer and has managed to merge so many sci fi genres into his show, I loved the crack in the wall, the pandorica opens and the big bang are amazing, the whole production is so atmospheric and Moffet plays on the heart strings so well.

The film scores, characterization and acting are mostly, second to non and even in the flatter episodes there is usually something good.

I found the hungry earth and the other Silurian thing a bit slow and a bit 'empty' and I have an aversion to the kind of plutonic Silurian types.

I love Madam Vastra but I don't think she was in series five.

I loved the weeping angels two parter and Victory of the Daleks is a really cool but here is where they could have made a Much better two parter because that story could have been expanded quite a bit even to a three parter or even a four parter, in fact why not just make a whole series out of a really comp[loex Dalek plot, why not it has'nt been done before and actually, why would the doctor even have to make an appearance what about a new show called Dalek or even 'I Dalek'.

I loved Vincent and the doctor hated the beast below what a load of old crap that was.

So, yeah up and down but generally up.

Looking back on it now:

Matt is a good Doctor but he's just too young in series 5.
The stuff with him and River just looks creepy, the gap year boy who wants to talk to you about the plight of some rare species of lion in some Asian country vs the stay at home borderline grandma who wants to drain the last dregs of her youth vicariously by taming the local wild youth.
NO THANKS

I'll never really get over the boring "Doctor Who by numbers" (See the "Formula" thread for more on this ) Trope filled Silurian episodes.
On first viewing I was clock-watching and the few times I've tried to re-assess it hasn't improved.

A strong start in The Eleventh Hour (though it's still an episode that tries to be too clever than it actually is, It's basically "Smith and Jones" meets "42".
Yeah, great you can take 100s of still images in short succession, but what's that adding to the story? )
Then it goes missing for a good few episodes (The Beast Below is one of the worst episodes of the modern era with Matt seemingly stuck in "copy David Tennant when angry" mode alongside a panto queen-and I don't mean the Demon Headmaster by this!!), ruins the Daleks (WILL. NOT ACCEPT. NEW. PARADIGM. DALEKS! )

Picks up a bit with the Angels 2 parter, even if seeing them actually turn their head completely ruined them for me.
Using the crack as a deux ex machina felt like a bit of a cop out too...

It's not a bad series (that comes next) but after the RTD era was firing on all cylinders, Moffat's era begins back at square one and hasn't' quite regained the same momentum.