I'm coming towards the end of watching the Troughton Era and it occurred to me just how many things came from that Era that we have today.

The Hartnell Era introduced us to the basic concepts of the show, like The Doctor himself, the TARDIS being bigger inside than out, the ever changing companion line up, the 'Doctor Who girl.' and it's most popular adversary ever in The Daleks. Plus in terms of the shows long term future it introduced us to the concept of regeneration(though obviously not termed that at the time) However, I think there's an argument to be put that the Troughton Era had a greater impact on the show we have today.

So these are the things I think that support my argument:

1) The abandonment of the historicals that were the mainstay of the Hartnell Era and making it a pure sci-fi show as we have today. I always feel the Hartnell Era was more of a pure kids show in line with how Hartnell wanted it but in Troughton's Era it seemed to grow up more and appeal to a wider fanbase.

2) The Time Lords-Introduced in The War Games, they are surely the biggest impact creation in Classic Who which have provided plots for many stories since.

3) The Sonic Screwdriver-First used in Fury From The Deep and still part of The Doctor's armoury today.

4) Dr John Smith-One story later, this name was first used in The Wheel In Space and that's still being used today as well.

5)The Cybermen- Yes, though introduced right at the end of the First Doctor's Era it was essentially a Troughton story in disguise and it was during his era they were established.

6)UNIT- Though The War Machines sort of was the first story to feature army fights etc, it was the Troughton Era that introduced UNIT and set it up not just for the Pertwee Era but it's use in the New Series as well.

So what do you think? Is the Troughton Era the true genesis of Doctor Who or do you think the Hartnell aspects I mentioned above are more important?

I would argue about the Cybermen with you since they started with Hartnell, but that is just nitpicking.

I would say that Hartnell was the Genesis, but Troughton was the Metamorphasis. (Think cocoon and butterfly.)

I did actually acknowledge that, and as I said it was the Troughton Era they were established properly.

I can see what you are saying OP, but it was definately William Hartnell's era that was the Genesis of Doctor Who. He was the first Doctor, plus, both the Daleks and the Cybermen were seen before Troughton came along. Also, as you said, we had the Tardis and the 'bigger inside than out' concept.

A lot of what we have in today's Doctor Who is because of the First Doctor being around. Without the First Doctor, we probably wouldn't have had the Daleks, or the Cybermen.

Me and my sister watched Power of the Daleks live when it was first broadcast and the most important thing to remember about Dr Who is that it is a program that is there for kids not grown ups and that was the magic, and it is that magic that is blown away with quote : "an argument".

Bored again Daveyboy?

To be honest you're stretching your own point trying to give the Cybermen to Troughton. You might as well give the Time Lords to Pertwee as they were introduced in a story by writers more associated with him and more probably 'invented' as such by the man responsible for sticking The Doctor on Earth and all the other examples are pretty weak.

And Doctor Who was still very much a kids show with Troughton. It starterd to get more adult with Pertwee.

The biggest impact were the Daleks not the Time Lords and the genesis of Doctor Who starts from An Unearthly Child.

The concept of Doctor Who, the Tardis and the Daleks they trump any of your examples and they were all Hartnell.

Not sure your wider fanbase either, Hartnell before him and Pertwee afterwards got more viewers.

Ironically I watched The War Ganes the other week, must admit was shocked with low viewing figures it got. Just 3.5 million! that's Sylvester McCoy bad. Far from being the genesis of Doctor Who, Troughton was almost the death of it.

I think you're both missing the point of the thread to be honest. What I was trying to say, and not too well obviously, was that Doctor Who as we know it started really with the Troughton Era and a lot of what was created within that era was taken forward perhaps a lot more than the Hartnell Era.

I'm not dissing anything from the First Doctor's Era either. William Hartnell is a much underrated Doctor who doesn't get the credit he deserves a lot of the time and the natural genesis of the Series off course lies within that era. With his interpretation there wouldn't be a template for the rest to follow. As I said at the top, the TARDIS Concept, The Daleks and the other stuff I mentioned all come from that Era and no way should it be ignored.

What I was asking was if there was an argument that what was created during Troughton's time has had more a lasting legacy than those things. For me, with the abandonment of the historicals, the show becoming a sci-fi one only remained for the rest of the Series aside the odd trip back in time here and there. Okay, I accept the Cybermen is stretching the point but they did come right at the end of the First Doctor's Era in a story that was Troughtonesque in everything but name. The Time Lords, okay, suppose the Daleks have a prior claim but the invention of The Time Lords was just as important.

The really big occurrence which I forgot to mention was that off course the Troughton Era introduced us to the idea that you could have a New Doctor and made it possible for the rest that followed. Add that into the other stuff I mentioned at the top and I think you can make the argument about which era had the greater legacy.

So Jethryk, this isn't about ratings during Troughton's time, it's about the mythology that was carried on from his era and how much of it is still present today. Plus I also resent your remark about me being bored. This forum is going through a lull at the moment, if I choose to start a thread that I think will be of interest I will do it, it doesn't mean I'm bored, I don't spend copious amounts of time on here, much as that may seem. I do have other things in my life but it's nice to be able to indulge in my hobby if I so wish without sarcastic remarks like that.

No. The reasons you have given aren't good the show could have survived without these things and the Cybermen were introduced in Hartnell's era.

Are you trying to say the Time Lords had more impact than the Daleks? The only good thing about the Time Lords was the Time War not the mostly dull Time Lord stories in the classic series

Troughton was excellent. The ratings were dropping because after six years, Doctor Who had barely changed.

The formula was this:

The Tardis lands.

Trouble starts.

The Tardis crew are separated.

The Doctor meets a gang of rebels/friendlies in daft outfits.

Endless talking scenes to pad out the episodes.

The friendlies overthrow the bad guys in an anti-climatic ending.

The Doctor leaves.

Next story: Rinse repeat. That's how it was most of the time. It's beautiful simplicity worked well at the start, but naturally it got old. I sometimes wonder if that's why ratings are in a slight decline at the moment.


It needed a re-jig, and they gave it a re-jig by putting the Doctor on Earth. That's what saved the ratings.

I suggest you read the post above yours, not explaining it again.

Plus one more thing to add to my argument. The Doctor during Hartnell's Era was very much the aimless wanderer who did fight evil when he found it but he still wasn't quite the moral crusader for which he became from Troughton's time onwards. I think that speech in The Moonbase about the Evil in the universe which must be fought was a slight change in emphasis for the character which has stayed the same until this day.

Troughton was the first actor to have been through a regeneration. The show could easily have been axed, if people hadn't accepted Troughton as the Doctor. Troughton managed to recreate a new Doctor and become a popular one at that. Without Troughton being so good as the Doctor, the show would have died in the sixties. New Who would never have happened.

True but with Hartnell they're would be no Troughton so you can't claim the genesis of the programme started with Troughton. Particularly if you're going to use the examples Daveyboy did.

I think the Doctor developed over Hartnell's time.

I do agree if you're saying that Troughton's Doctor is more recognisable to today's audience than Hartnell's but that's a lot different to claiming that the true genesis if Doctor Who lies with Troughton.

Simple answer is no. It wasn't. Yes it had alot of now very familiar elements that have carried through the years but so has every era. Hartnell was the genesis of Doctor Who. The answers in the question.

I see your point, Davey, in that a lot of lasting elements came out of the Troughton era, but to me the Hartnell era still feels like Doctor-Who-as-we-know-it.

These lists always seem to have one or two inapplicable entries shoehorned-in.

Well, if the Cybermen didn't begin in earnest until the Troughton era, then it's only fair to say the Time Lords as we now know them belong to the Tom Baker era.

Yes, that is very true! For me, watching the stories, in order on DVD, from An Unearthly Child onwards, when I get to Troughton's last series, I feel the show is then starting to get a more adult feel to it.

The War Games DEFINATELY feels more adult, what with the different zones, the guns going off with the WW1 scenes and so on.

Jon Pertwee's era is certainly more adult, as we have the pretty much perminant inclusion of UNIT, with their more adult ways of trying to protect the Earth from alien threats. I think, if any child decided that they wanted to watch the JP Doctor stories on DVD, it would be best if they had an adult there with them.

I would class a lot of the JP era on DVD as being a 12a. This means that the DVDs would need to be watched with an adult being there with them. It's like with the Doctor Who and the Silurians DVD. One of the extra features includes a documentary that shows in the first scene, a man sat on the sofa with his two young sons, watching DW.

Having just watched Seeds of Death (nearly put Doom there) on the Horror channel and then the first episode of Daemons I am inclined to think that the real start of Doctor Who as we know it today is the Pertwee era. Much as I like Troughton's Doctor it is all still quite stagey but Daemons reminded me of just how fruity the 70s Who was and it has stayed quite fruity ever since. Those are technical terms, natch.

But in an effort to be more comprehensible I would say that the Pertwee era reflected the broader television culture in that directors and actors were adapting much more effectively to television as a medium. Editing, direction, special effects all improved in the era of colour (with the odd throwback even into the 1980s and saying hello to the Myrka which I remember being horrified by and not in a good way).

So I would say that the continuity is between Hartnell and Troughton eras where production values have not really moved much beyond the idea of 'play for the day' and the Pertwee era where we are now into Who as television qua television. I bags the first use of 'qua' in DS forums.

The Myrka, like most of JNT Who, could have been made much more imposing with less lighting.

Yes, I think you've probably hit the nail on the head a lot more than I did. I knew where I was going with this thread but maybe using the words 'true genesis' was a bit over the top. Maybe the Troughton Era contained a lot of the 'seeds' of what we have today in what I said in my opening post. The Sonic Screwdriver, the use of the John Smith alias, the creation of UNIT and the Time Lords, the concept of a New Doctor and the show becoming solid sci-fi, that was my point that all these things were created or shaped during the Troughton Era and have stayed with us. I do hope that sort of makes more sense of what I was trying to say at the beginning.

On a wider note, I still think there is a difference between the first two Doctor's era's. I still regard the Hartnell Era as an era first and foremost for young kids and this was reflected in some of the dialogue and the childish antics/behaviour of some of the companions, particularly Vicki. Plus Hartnell certainly regarded it as such and it really does have that old fashioned 'after school' feel of the sixties even though it was shown on a Saturday evening. Even The Doctor himself wasn't exempt from such dialogue and behaviour.

Though I agree the Troughton Era was still primarily for kids, I think it was for an older range of children and was seeking to be more adult. You look at The War Machines and how different it feels to the rest of the stories before it, it definitely was a bit more trendy and this was reflected in the introduction of Ben, and Polly, the first real sex symbol companion of the show. It was perhaps more hard hitting with deaths of several innocent people and it just feels more 'grown up.' and this continued into the Troughton Era.

I also agree with the comments that when Pertwee took over that it went one step further again and became more adult but I don't feel it just suddenly happened overnight. As with the seeds of the Pertwee Era being sown as far back as The Web Of Fear, I think this was a progressive step that started happening as far back as The War Machines, it just took a larger leap than normal to get to that point.

Yes, it was a gradual transformation, though I would argue that there were some rather adult-ish themes in The Time Meddler, and even back as far as The Keys of Marinus.

Yes, I agree and isn't that the strange thing that within the more kiddy related stories there were these adult themes. I would add Susan with her scissors in The Edge Of Destruction as another example, that would not be allowed today.

Yes! The episodes that are avaliable anyway are one thing but I really enjoyed the recon versions of Power of the daleks, Evil of the Daleks, Fury from the Deep & The faceless Ones.

The original Scissor Sister!

The fight between Za & Kal in the very 1st story and the mere hint that our hero was prepared to murder earlier in the story are other anomalties. I just think while the tone of the programme became less of a kids show and more family orientated during the black and white years, It was more of a deliberate decision in Pertwee's time.

Polly as a companion is a good example of the changing tone but she started with Hartnell. Later on in Troughton's time with companions like Jamie, Victoria and Zoe it reverted back to kids travelling with the Doctor.

The 1st real adult companion/assisstant since Ian and Barbara really was Liz Shaw.