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Giffgaff to ban customers from buying unlimited data bundles.


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Old 26-05-2014, 12:17
wavejockglw
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That's the abolition of net neutrality, the prospect of having different tiers based on charging a premium for some services or denying access to them. That won't go down well with advocates for Internet freedom.
It's already happening to some extent with data pricing. Some would argue that it is justifiable charging extra for data hungry services. I suppose it all depends on the offer. There is little point in Netflix on a network with traffic management that makes it impossible to stream, so you then have the following options, (a) pay per MB for the streaming or (B) buy a package that allows a set amount of streaming at a cost. The problem with the latter is that in high traffic areas there may be no guarantee of the performance due to congestion.

I would rather loose net neutrality to be able to use my smartphone when out and about in the city as for many HD streaming may be putting a strain on the networks making everyday average usage difficult. Quite a dilemma and not one that networks will find an easy solution to, apart from pricing of course!
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Old 26-05-2014, 12:33
flagpole
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Hard to offer that when video is embedded in many websites like Facebook etc, however there may be some justification for charging a premium for the use of dedicated streaming services like Netflix or Amazon Prime video with additional cost for HD. That may be a solution that will be deployed by some carriers in the future to prevent excessive use of video on mobiles. That said, data pricing offers the same opportunity so I expect that to be the favoured strategy to encourage responsible use.
That's the abolition of net neutrality, the prospect of having different tiers based on charging a premium for some services or denying access to them. That won't go down well with advocates for Internet freedom.
Mobile platforms are of course somewhat different to fixed line broad band providers. for fixed line the upstream bandwidth has a genuine cost to them. the local delivery is fairly cheap after they have built or rented the line.

mobile providers it's the other way around.

net neutrality is an issue on which i would definitely change provider.
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Old 26-05-2014, 12:44
wavejockglw
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net neutrality is an issue on which i would definitely change provider.
Some networks already have different policies for peer to peer traffic and streaming video (compression) but I can appreciate they have to try to deliver as much as possible to as many as possible efficiently to make a profit.
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Old 26-05-2014, 14:39
finbaar
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That's the abolition of net neutrality, the prospect of having different tiers based on charging a premium for some services or denying access to them. That won't go down well with advocates for Internet freedom.
. The abolition of net neutrality is charging edge customers for access to customers and charging the customers as well.

The ideal situation would be to charge per bit and charge for speed. Abolish all you can eat plans and arbitrary limits like 500mb or 10gb. That way those bandwidth hoggers who stream video would pay a fair price. The Three 321 plan is on the right lines but still to expensive. Data at 1p per 4mb would be about right with a premium for streaming speeds. Abolish contracts as well where the price includes the phone
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Old 26-05-2014, 14:57
flagpole
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Some networks already have different policies for peer to peer traffic and streaming video (compression) but I can appreciate they have to try to deliver as much as possible to as many as possible efficiently to make a profit.
really i meant with my fixed line provider.
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Old 26-05-2014, 14:58
alanwarwic
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So if you are paying only £5 a month for 500mb, who would willingly pay £500 a month for 50GB of movies?

Anyway, the more likely outcome of non neutrality is likely £10 or £15 per month for that small 500MB and a massive increases across the board for other data plans.
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Old 13-06-2014, 07:31
Lou_Smorals1
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I've been keeping an eye on the giffgaff forum for the last few days and it would seem that this new policy of theirs is now in full swing with warning emails being sent out and some customers already banned from buying any more unlimited bundles.

If the claims are to be believed then people are getting banned from unlimited data for using as little as 35GB a month so just over 1GB a day which leaves me to wonder with the World Cup just started and everyone and their dog streaming matches on their phones,how many punters are giffgaff going to have left by the quarter final stage?
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Old 13-06-2014, 09:24
jonmorris
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Well, if you're following England then I guess your data usage over the next 30 days will be less than most.
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Old 13-06-2014, 10:38
flagpole
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I've been keeping an eye on the giffgaff forum for the last few days and it would seem that this new policy of theirs is now in full swing with warning emails being sent out and some customers already banned from buying any more unlimited bundles.

If the claims are to be believed then people are getting banned from unlimited data for using as little as 35GB a month so just over 1GB a day which leaves me to wonder with the World Cup just started and everyone and their dog streaming matches on their phones,how many punters are giffgaff going to have left by the quarter final stage?
did you really think you'd be able to get 35GB for £12 a month? really?

as for how many customers giffgaff will have left by the quarter finals stage. i expect they'd lose almost non, as most people will be watching the football on tv. but presumably if the tiny percentage of users that are using 35GB do f/o giffgaff and the rest of it's customers will be laughing.
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Old 13-06-2014, 11:02
mupet0000
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did you really think you'd be able to get 35GB for £12 a month? really?
What a stupid thing to say. It says unlimited, 35GB isn't a huge amount of a supposedly "unlimited" goodybag. Why wouldn't you think you can get 35GB?

I'm on Three paying £12.90 for unlimited data and their "unlimited" is 1000GB a month.
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Old 13-06-2014, 11:05
jonmorris
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did you really think you'd be able to get 35GB for £12 a month? really?
Yeah, even Three users have to pay more than that - although my £15 a month will allow me to use 965GB more!
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Old 13-06-2014, 11:07
flagpole
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What a stupid thing to say. It says unlimited, 35GB isn't a huge amount of a supposedly "unlimited" goodybag. Why wouldn't you think you can get 35GB?

I'm on Three paying £12.90 for unlimited data and their "unlimited" is 1000GB a month.
watch who you're calling stupid mupet.
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Old 13-06-2014, 11:25
wavejockglw
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Bear in mind that 3/4G networks can only really support an average use of around 5GB per month with their present bandwidth. If that is exceeded data delivery becomes difficult for all customers and to ensure everyone gets a fair share traffic management has to be deployed. This happens a lot now in populated areas where significant numbers are using mobile broadband and tethering as fixed line alternatives. When price regulates consumption there is less chance of congestion as customers are more careful about how they use the limited bandwidth the networks have.
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Old 13-06-2014, 11:34
flagpole
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Bear in mind that 3/4G networks can only really support an average use of around 5GB per month with their present bandwidth. If that is exceeded data delivery becomes difficult for all customers and to ensure everyone gets a fair share traffic management has to be deployed. This happens a lot now in populated areas where significant numbers are using mobile broadband and tethering as fixed line alternatives. When price regulates consumption there is less chance of congestion as customers are more careful about how they use the limited bandwidth the networks have.
giffgaff are in a worse position than others really. because with no highstreet presence etc their user base is going to be more 'technical,' nerds basically. and they are going to have higher data requirements on average than other networks. they can't subsidise the high users so easily.
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Old 13-06-2014, 11:46
WelshBluebird
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did you really think you'd be able to get 35GB for £12 a month? really?
If the service is sold as unlimited, then yes.
With modern smartphone use, and what we can now do on mobile with the speeds available, then 1GB a day really is not that much at all.
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Old 13-06-2014, 11:47
wavejockglw
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giffgaff are in a worse position than others really. because with no highstreet presence etc their user base is going to be more 'technical,' nerds basically. and they are going to have higher data requirements on average than other networks. they can't subsidise the high users so easily.
True I guess but any network offering 'unlimited' is bound to attract some very high users that will probably be uneconomical. Not a big problem if there only a small number but as the user base increases they become more of an issue and need 'managed'. The opportunity to get totally or almost unlimited data from mobile networks is decreasing which is what one would have to expect as more average users demand more data.
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Old 13-06-2014, 11:55
flagpole
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If the service is sold as unlimited, then yes.
With modern smartphone use, and what we can now do on mobile with the speeds available, then 1GB a day really is not that much at all.
you say it's not that much but a fraction of a percent of people are using that much. and it is actually twice the average usage for fixed line broadband.

so by any metric you care to use it is actually a lot.
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Old 13-06-2014, 13:22
swordman
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Nothing is "a lot" if you are told your usage is unlimited. Nothing bugs me more than than these bait and switch tactics from companies claiming unlimited use. If I buy unlimited I expect just that, how they have been allowed to get away with it for so long is astonishing.
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Old 13-06-2014, 13:56
flagpole
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Nothing is "a lot" if you are told your usage is unlimited. Nothing bugs me more than than these bait and switch tactics from companies claiming unlimited use. If I buy unlimited I expect just that, how they have been allowed to get away with it for so long is astonishing.
Because the regulator thinks you are wrong? fundamentally disagrees with your position?

The word ‘Unlimited’

if it says unlimited it should be unlimited’ – comes up all the time. And I think it’s over simplistic.

Your Mum doesn’t know what a Gigabyte is. Neither do 90% of mobile customers. This is different from minutes and texts. You could tell them their plan included 1 Kilobyte or 1 Petabyte and it wouldn’t mean anything to most people. This is not just some users, it’s the majority. What they want to know is that they can, generally surf, Youtube etc and not run up a bill. That is why they go for an Unlimited plan. The ASA understands this and that is why they repeatedly make the rulings that they do.

The people demanding ‘if it says unlimited it should be unlimited’ are generally people who have good knowledge and use a lot of data, 100GB, some people have mentioned 350GB. The realistic cost of this data, if you were say running a tv station and wanted to upload video in the field is around £8/GB, if you’re buying a Petabyte at a time. The only reason you are able to use £800 -£2800 worth of data is because you are sat in the loophole of ‘Unlimited.’ They have to let you so that they can sell an Unlimited tariff to your mum.

If we insist that ‘if it says unlimited it should be unlimited’ you don’t get ‘Unlimited’ data, the word ‘Unlimited’ disappears. If you want a limit of 10GB you’ll have to pay an extra £40 a month for it, every month. And if you use nearly all of it come renewal time they’ll not be interested in giving you a good deal. And your mum, who no longer has the comfort of knowing she can’t use the internet indefinitely without fear of running up a bill and has no idea what her 1GB limit actually means uses the internet a lot less. Nobody wins.

What is needed is a compromise. An ‘Unlimited - *’

* - if your usage exceeds the 95th percentile of our customer base, currently around 3GB per month your connection speed may be reduced. You will not be charged any extra.

The cognoscenti can read it and not buy it if they don’t want to and your mum is happy too. Data is not free.
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Old 13-06-2014, 14:05
WelshBluebird
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so by any metric you care to use it is actually a lot.
I wouldn't say streaming one film (or based on current events a football match) is a lot, and that can easily use over 1GB in just a couple of hours.
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Old 13-06-2014, 14:49
flagpole
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I wouldn't say streaming one film (or based on current events a football match) is a lot, and that can easily use over 1GB in just a couple of hours.
regardless of what you would say. you are talking about a level of data use that is in the top fraction of one percent. which is, by definition, high.

it's like saying you don't think my 12" is large.
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Old 13-06-2014, 15:50
jabbamk1
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it's like saying you don't think my 12" is large.
Errr, you must work for dominos right... right?

My issue with giff gaff is they don't explain their fair use properly.
All other networks have a fairly clear fair use such as Lyca and Virgin.

Giff gaff's policy is so vague I could be cut off for something I've done whilst not even realizing it counts as abuse.

If giff gaff are going to say unlimited and cut people off for using too.much then that's wrong. But if they actually define a soft cap it hard cap then I'd say its fair as they are being open about the limits.
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Old 13-06-2014, 15:57
swordman
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Because the regulator thinks you are wrong? fundamentally disagrees with your position?
What are you quoting there exactly?

The whole case about your mum not knowing what a mb means is exactly why some people choose unlimited to avoid this confusion, only to be very sadly mistaken. This whole nonsense about cost per/mb etc is a red herring, if you can't offer unlimited don't claim you are.

I understood ofcom had the view in their response to CAP and BCAP

In relation to the use of the term “unlimited” in broadband advertising, we
recommend the following:
• The use of the term unlimited is only permitted where the service in
question has no usage caps through a ‘fair usage policy’ or similar.
The ASA in their "guidance" say

“Unlimited” claims are likely to be acceptable for telecommunications services that are
subject to provider-imposed limitations if:
• They do not restrict or limit a service in a manner contrary to the average consumer’s expectations of an “unlimited” service
The legitimate user incurs no additional charge or suspension of service as a
consequence of exceeding any usage threshold associated with a fair usage or traffic
management policy

• Claims that have the same or similar meaning, for instance, “Limitless” or “All you can use”, will be assessed by the ASA on a case-by-case basis.
Now if you don't know what as mb is as claimed you are even less likely to know what an average usage is. just nonsense and should be stopped.
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Old 13-06-2014, 18:24
flagpole
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Now if you don't know what as mb is as claimed you are even less likely to know what an average usage is.
you cannot be serious?

I ask again. what would be the advantage and to whom?
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Old 13-06-2014, 18:33
Thine Wonk
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I sit on the fence on this issue I'm afraid, on one hand "as little as 35GB a month" is an oxymoron, that is an immense amount of data to use on a mobile phone, especially as tethering is not allowed.

On the other side of the argument, don't advertise unlimited then if you're going to ban people for using too much. TELL people what your fair use policy is, don't leave it up to guesswork and interpretation as to what people are allowed.

I think Three should stop unlimited data as it is clearly being abused to the detriment of the main customer base who get affected by the tiny 1% who rape the connection for every gigabyte it's worth 24/7 and use simply stupid unsustainable amounts. I think even Three should put in a 50Gig limit or something, although we worked out Three had many times more capacity overhead due to the user to spectrum ratio and the number of masts.
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