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Is the David and Carol story really a retcon? |
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#1 |
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 169
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Is the David and Carol story really a retcon?
Lots of people on here have been saying it is. This confused me as it isn't how I remember things. I started watching regularly sometime in '94, in the run up to Sharongate, so I don't remember how it was portrayed when David was very first introduced, but I do remember most of his stint. I always thought they were supposed to be childhood sweethearts split apart by Derek. Anyways, went on youtube and found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2gjds6lssg which does imply that if there was a retcon it happened sometime before David left the first time in '96, and isn't a recent development. Just wondered where all this stuff about it being a retcon came from. There may be other scenes that show otherwise, but my brief peruse of youtube didn't turf them up. |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Cell Block H
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Yeah I never bought into the 'its a retcon' either and I'm pleased you posted this clip as its exactly how I always remembered it too. I never got involved in the debates about it being a retcon but I always knew it wasn't from memory.
I think people just throw around the retcon term to justify their dislike of a story. |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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I'm one of the people who always got a little confused when people said it was a retcon!
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#4 |
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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Quote:
Yeah I never bought into the 'its a retcon' either and I'm pleased you posted this clip as its exactly how I always remembered it too.
I think people just throw around the retcon term to justify their dislike of a story. What IS a giant retcon, IMO, is this whole St. Carol who was always such a great mother and so reliable and did everything for her family idea. She completely abandoned all of them except Billie for YEARS. Yes, Bianca had slept with her fiance but she was very young at the time. And Sonia and Robbie had done nothing to deserve it. She did nothing for Sonia when she became a teenage Mum, then coldly (albeit silently, via telephone) refused to help or console her when she was distraught at having given Chloe/Rebecca up , simply judging and blaming her for the whole thing. And she didn't show up for Sonia's wedding, even though Billie went. And when Bianca was homeless and on the streets with her own grandchildren she still refused to help, yet now she's the world's best mum/granny. Please. To me, that's the real retcon here. Also, slightly OT, but I wish they would provide some explanation as to why Martin hasn't turned up either for his mother-in-law's wedding, or more crucially, to the funeral of his cousin's murdered daughter, a cousin he was close to his entire childhood. Why bring Sonia back still with Martin, when last we'd heard prior to that they has separated, only to have major storylines involving his family and him living close by, with his wife involved, yet he doesn't show up at all. That really is bizarre. |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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The retcon accusations come from the fact David was never really into Carol when they were on the show together previously. That clip posted occured after Carol had found out her husband had cheated on her and the square had found out about David cheating with Cindy. They were both using each other and quickly realised it was a mistake. David left soon after.
I have no difficulty believing Carol thinks David is the love of her life. She always thinks whoever she's with is the love of her life. What I don't buy is David's feelings for Carol. He may have thought she was something special when they were teenagers but he wasn't impressed with how she turned out as an adult. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu19GUsa0Vo Their past together has been retconned. They dated very briefly as teenagers and it produced Bianca. David gave Carol money for an abortion and that was that. Recently the writers have made out like they dated for years but that wasn't the story as described in the 90's. |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 631
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Blimey, David's had his teeth fixed then...
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#7 |
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 169
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Quote:
The retcon accusations come from the fact David was never really into Carol when they were on the show together previously. That clip posted occured after Carol had found out her husband had cheated on her and the square had found out about David cheating with Cindy. They were both using each other and quickly realised it was a mistake. David left soon after.
I have no difficulty believing Carol thinks David is the love of her life. She always thinks whoever she's with is the love of her life. What I don't buy is David's feelings for Carol. He may have thought she was something special when they were teenagers but he wasn't impressed with how she turned out as an adult. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu19GUsa0Vo Their past together has been retconned. They dated very briefly as teenagers and it produced Bianca. David gave Carol money for an abortion and that was that. Recently the writers have made out like they dated for years but that wasn't the story as described in the 90's. Furthermore I can see how two people who's lives have been such enormous car crashes as David's and Carol's would construct a narrative for themselves by which were star-crossed lovers separated by the cruel hands of fate, who could have had it all and are now making it right in middle age. It provides a much nicer perspective from which they can look back at their lives. |
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#8 |
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Quote:
I watched that clip too. I do remember that David wasn't that into Carol in the '90s. He was generally into younger, more glamorous women. He clearly had some feelings for her at that time but he wasn't looking for commitment in any form and was already planning to bolt from Walford when Alan cheated with Frankie and she became available again. However isn't his reignited interest in her part of his character growth? And people on here have been saying that their relationship was just a one night stand, but it was clearly more than that, although it can only have been as serious as a relationship between two 13/14 year-olds is capable of being, ie not very.
Furthermore I can see how two people who's lives have been such enormous car crashes as David's and Carol's would construct a narrative for themselves by which were star-crossed lovers separated by the cruel hands of fate, who could have had it all and are now making it right in middle age. It provides a much nicer perspective from which they can look back at their lives.
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#9 |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 9,412
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Quote:
The retcon accusations come from the fact David was never really into Carol when they were on the show together previously. That clip posted occured after Carol had found out her husband had cheated on her and the square had found out about David cheating with Cindy. They were both using each other and quickly realised it was a mistake. David left soon after.
I have no difficulty believing Carol thinks David is the love of her life. She always thinks whoever she's with is the love of her life. What I don't buy is David's feelings for Carol. He may have thought she was something special when they were teenagers but he wasn't impressed with how she turned out as an adult. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu19GUsa0Vo Their past together has been retconned. They dated very briefly as teenagers and it produced Bianca. David gave Carol money for an abortion and that was that. Recently the writers have made out like they dated for years but that wasn't the story as described in the 90's. I have never bought that David loves, or has ever loved Carol. That is where the retcon was. David Wicks was always a commitment-phobe; and he and Carol only got together in the 90s after David had been shunned by the entire Square. |
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#10 |
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Join Date: Jan 2014
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Apparently so - it seems the backstory was Carol was a bit promiscuous so they weren't a great love story and Bianca might not have even been David's.
Retcon seems to come up a lot but I have no problem with it provided the retcon in question is explained. That way it isn't as someone else said, used to justify the dislike of a story. |
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#11 |
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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I agree with that but I think it should be made clear that this is what's happening rather than letting new viewers think differently. Here's another clip where David consoles Alan for falling in love with an old slapper https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygi_TxtHPCE He really didn't care too much for Carol in the 90's
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#12 |
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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Quote:
Apparently so - it seems the backstory was Carol was a bit promiscuous so they weren't a great love story and Bianca might not have even been David's.
Retcon seems to come up a lot but I have no problem with it provided the retcon in question is explained. That way it isn't as someone else said, used to justify the dislike of a story. |
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#13 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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Those clips show the David that I remember. That David would never have settled for Carol, especially a sick Carol.
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#14 |
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Those clips show the David that I remember. That David would never have settled for Carol, especially a sick Carol.
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#15 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
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David wasn't interested in Carol in the 1990s because he was selfish and commitment-shy. Only now he is older he has wanted to change his ways and settle. He probably did love Carol even then, but he has always loved himself and his unstable, unpredictable lifestyle more. Since Carol has always had feelings for him and he has a ready-made family with her, it makes sense that it is with her that he wants to put things right at this stage of his life.
The only thing I do not completely buy is that David is a bigger love to Carol than Alan was. Alan took on her three kids and they were a rock solid couple until they both cheated and split up off-screen. I accept that there will always be a spark with David, but these days she never mentions Alan, as though he was nothing. |
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#16 |
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Quote:
David wasn't interested in Carol in the 1990s because he was selfish and commitment-shy. Only now he is older he has wanted to change his ways and settle. He probably did love Carol even then, but he has always loved himself and his unstable, unpredictable lifestyle more. Since Carol has always had feelings for him and he has a ready-made family with her, it makes sense that it is with her that he wants to put things right at this stage of his life.
The only thing I do not completely buy is that David is a bigger love to Carol than Alan was. Alan took on her three kids and they were a rock solid couple until they both cheated and split up off-screen. I accept that there will always be a spark with David, but these days she never mentions Alan, as though he was nothing. |
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#17 |
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: London
Posts: 957
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It's not a retcon, David loves Carol and Carol loves David!
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#18 |
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Quote:
David wasn't interested in Carol in the 1990s because he was selfish and commitment-shy. Only now he is older he has wanted to change his ways and settle. He probably did love Carol even then, but he has always loved himself and his unstable, unpredictable lifestyle more. Since Carol has always had feelings for him and he has a ready-made family with her, it makes sense that it is with her that he wants to put things right at this stage of his life.
The only thing I do not completely buy is that David is a bigger love to Carol than Alan was. Alan took on her three kids and they were a rock solid couple until they both cheated and split up off-screen. I accept that there will always be a spark with David, but these days she never mentions Alan, as though he was nothing. |
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#19 |
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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Posts: 12
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Am I the only one who had to google 'retcon'?
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#20 |
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#21 |
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5,282
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I feel we are going to get a conversation between the two in the next two episodes, where they address what people are saying and realise that they've been kidding themselves. I still don't see David dying, I think the heart attack is just a catalyst for the realisation. I think Carol is trying to get back the past and David is trying to be someone he's not, someone Pat would be proud of, and they will both realise this causing David to leave.
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#22 |
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What IS a giant retcon, IMO, is this whole St. Carol who was always such a great mother and so reliable and did everything for her family idea. She completely abandoned all of them except Billie for YEARS. Yes, Bianca had slept with her fiance but she was very young at the time. And Sonia and Robbie had done nothing to deserve it. She did nothing for Sonia when she became a teenage Mum, then coldly (albeit silently, via telephone) refused to help or console her when she was distraught at having given Chloe/Rebecca up , simply judging and blaming her for the whole thing. And she didn't show up for Sonia's wedding, even though Billie went. And when Bianca was homeless and on the streets with her own grandchildren she still refused to help, yet now she's the world's best mum/granny. Please. To me, that's the real retcon here. She's constantly pointing it out. I still believe that if one of them did something she didn't agree with, she'd let them know it, in much the similar way she's done in the past. What has happened, though, is she's mellowed a bit - but also seen the regard Pat was held in. She wants her family to think of her in the same way they still think of Pat, but knows she'll never actually measure up. |
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#23 |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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Quote:
The retcon accusations come from the fact David was never really into Carol when they were on the show together previously. That clip posted occured after Carol had found out her husband had cheated on her and the square had found out about David cheating with Cindy. They were both using each other and quickly realised it was a mistake. David left soon after.
I have no difficulty believing Carol thinks David is the love of her life. She always thinks whoever she's with is the love of her life. What I don't buy is David's feelings for Carol. He may have thought she was something special when they were teenagers but he wasn't impressed with how she turned out as an adult. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu19GUsa0Vo Their past together has been retconned. They dated very briefly as teenagers and it produced Bianca. David gave Carol money for an abortion and that was that. Recently the writers have made out like they dated for years but that wasn't the story as described in the 90's. David and Carol were just never that into each other in the 90s yes they had been together as teenagers and were each others 'first love' but thats where it ended. David was horrible to Carol for the majority of his 90s stint. That first clip the OP posted is taken a bit out of context - Carol had just discovered Alan had been having an affair and David's affair with Cindy had just ended, both were feeling lonely and vulnerable and sought comfort in each other but it was very short lived. Other than that VERY brief fling in late 96 neither David nor Carol showed any interest in the other throughout their entire 1990s stint. The love of Carol's life at this time was Alan he was one who stuck around when all the other fathers of her kids scarpered. Alan was her rock her knight in shining armor, David was an immature idiot who spent his time chasing after much younger glamorous women. Since David's 2012 return they have tried to make David and Carol into the new Pat and Frank. Pat and Frank were a couple who loved one another from being teenagers right through into their dotage but external circumstances beyond their control kept forcing them apart. The writers are trying to portray David and Carol as the same type of star-crossed lovers but it simply doesnt fit with the 90s versions of both characters. |
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#24 |
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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To be fair, Carol is the only person who is saying that she is a great mother and does everything for her family.
She's constantly pointing it out. I still believe that if one of them did something she didn't agree with, she'd let them know it, in much the similar way she's done in the past. What has happened, though, is she's mellowed a bit - but also seen the regard Pat was held in. She wants her family to think of her in the same way they still think of Pat, but knows she'll never actually measure up. |
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#25 |
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100% this.
David and Carol were just never that into each other in the 90s yes they had been together as teenagers and were each others 'first love' but thats where it ended. David was horrible to Carol for the majority of his 90s stint. That first clip the OP posted is taken a bit out of context - Carol had just discovered Alan had been having an affair and David's affair with Cindy had just ended, both were feeling lonely and vulnerable and sought comfort in each other but it was very short lived. Other than that VERY brief fling in late 96 neither David nor Carol showed any interest in the other throughout their entire 1990s stint. The love of Carol's life at this time was Alan he was one who stuck around when all the other fathers of her kids scarpered. Alan was her rock her knight in shining armor, David was an immature idiot who spent his time chasing after much younger glamorous women. Since David's 2012 return they have tried to make David and Carol into the new Pat and Frank. Pat and Frank were a couple who loved one another from being teenagers right through into their dotage but external circumstances beyond their control kept forcing them apart. The writers are trying to portray David and Carol as the same type of star-crossed lovers but it simply doesnt fit with the 90s versions of both characters. |
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