DS Forums

 
 

Is the David and Carol story really a retcon?


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 28-05-2014, 14:20
perpet83
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 169

Lots of people on here have been saying it is. This confused me as it isn't how I remember things. I started watching regularly sometime in '94, in the run up to Sharongate, so I don't remember how it was portrayed when David was very first introduced, but I do remember most of his stint. I always thought they were supposed to be childhood sweethearts split apart by Derek. Anyways, went on youtube and found this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2gjds6lssg

which does imply that if there was a retcon it happened sometime before David left the first time in '96, and isn't a recent development. Just wondered where all this stuff about it being a retcon came from. There may be other scenes that show otherwise, but my brief peruse of youtube didn't turf them up.
perpet83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 28-05-2014, 14:24
Hit Em Up Style
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Cell Block H
Posts: 11,878
Yeah I never bought into the 'its a retcon' either and I'm pleased you posted this clip as its exactly how I always remembered it too. I never got involved in the debates about it being a retcon but I always knew it wasn't from memory.

I think people just throw around the retcon term to justify their dislike of a story.
Hit Em Up Style is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 14:48
benbenalen
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Albert Square
Posts: 10,674
I'm one of the people who always got a little confused when people said it was a retcon!
benbenalen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 14:51
perpet83
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 169
Yeah I never bought into the 'its a retcon' either and I'm pleased you posted this clip as its exactly how I always remembered it too.

I think people just throw around the retcon term to justify their dislike of a story.
To be fair Eastenders does retcon quite a lot, but this isn't one of those times.

What IS a giant retcon, IMO, is this whole St. Carol who was always such a great mother and so reliable and did everything for her family idea. She completely abandoned all of them except Billie for YEARS. Yes, Bianca had slept with her fiance but she was very young at the time. And Sonia and Robbie had done nothing to deserve it. She did nothing for Sonia when she became a teenage Mum, then coldly (albeit silently, via telephone) refused to help or console her when she was distraught at having given Chloe/Rebecca up , simply judging and blaming her for the whole thing. And she didn't show up for Sonia's wedding, even though Billie went. And when Bianca was homeless and on the streets with her own grandchildren she still refused to help, yet now she's the world's best mum/granny. Please. To me, that's the real retcon here.

Also, slightly OT, but I wish they would provide some explanation as to why Martin hasn't turned up either for his mother-in-law's wedding, or more crucially, to the funeral of his cousin's murdered daughter, a cousin he was close to his entire childhood. Why bring Sonia back still with Martin, when last we'd heard prior to that they has separated, only to have major storylines involving his family and him living close by, with his wife involved, yet he doesn't show up at all. That really is bizarre.
perpet83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 14:56
Broken_Arrow
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Suck it
Posts: 7,777
The retcon accusations come from the fact David was never really into Carol when they were on the show together previously. That clip posted occured after Carol had found out her husband had cheated on her and the square had found out about David cheating with Cindy. They were both using each other and quickly realised it was a mistake. David left soon after.

I have no difficulty believing Carol thinks David is the love of her life. She always thinks whoever she's with is the love of her life. What I don't buy is David's feelings for Carol. He may have thought she was something special when they were teenagers but he wasn't impressed with how she turned out as an adult. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu19GUsa0Vo

Their past together has been retconned. They dated very briefly as teenagers and it produced Bianca. David gave Carol money for an abortion and that was that. Recently the writers have made out like they dated for years but that wasn't the story as described in the 90's.
Broken_Arrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 14:58
machobob
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 631
Blimey, David's had his teeth fixed then...
machobob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 15:21
perpet83
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 169
The retcon accusations come from the fact David was never really into Carol when they were on the show together previously. That clip posted occured after Carol had found out her husband had cheated on her and the square had found out about David cheating with Cindy. They were both using each other and quickly realised it was a mistake. David left soon after.

I have no difficulty believing Carol thinks David is the love of her life. She always thinks whoever she's with is the love of her life. What I don't buy is David's feelings for Carol. He may have thought she was something special when they were teenagers but he wasn't impressed with how she turned out as an adult. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu19GUsa0Vo

Their past together has been retconned. They dated very briefly as teenagers and it produced Bianca. David gave Carol money for an abortion and that was that. Recently the writers have made out like they dated for years but that wasn't the story as described in the 90's.
I watched that clip too. I do remember that David wasn't that into Carol in the '90s. He was generally into younger, more glamorous women. He clearly had some feelings for her at that time but he wasn't looking for commitment in any form and was already planning to bolt from Walford when Alan cheated with Frankie and she became available again. However isn't his reignited interest in her part of his character growth? And people on here have been saying that their relationship was just a one night stand, but it was clearly more than that, although it can only have been as serious as a relationship between two 13/14 year-olds is capable of being, ie not very.

Furthermore I can see how two people who's lives have been such enormous car crashes as David's and Carol's would construct a narrative for themselves by which were star-crossed lovers separated by the cruel hands of fate, who could have had it all and are now making it right in middle age. It provides a much nicer perspective from which they can look back at their lives.
perpet83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 15:26
Broken_Arrow
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Suck it
Posts: 7,777
I watched that clip too. I do remember that David wasn't that into Carol in the '90s. He was generally into younger, more glamorous women. He clearly had some feelings for her at that time but he wasn't looking for commitment in any form and was already planning to bolt from Walford when Alan cheated with Frankie and she became available again. However isn't his reignited interest in her part of his character growth? And people on here have been saying that their relationship was just a one night stand, but it was clearly more than that, although it can only have been as serious as a relationship between two 13/14 year-olds is capable of being, ie not very.

Furthermore I can see how two people who's lives have been such enormous car crashes as David's and Carol's would construct a narrative for themselves by which were star-crossed lovers separated by the cruel hands of fate, who could have had it all and are now making it right in middle age. It provides a much nicer perspective from which they can look back at their lives.
I agree with that but I think it should be made clear that this is what's happening rather than letting new viewers think differently. Here's another clip where David consoles Alan for falling in love with an old slapper https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygi_TxtHPCE He really didn't care too much for Carol in the 90's
Broken_Arrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 15:32
bass55
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 9,412
The retcon accusations come from the fact David was never really into Carol when they were on the show together previously. That clip posted occured after Carol had found out her husband had cheated on her and the square had found out about David cheating with Cindy. They were both using each other and quickly realised it was a mistake. David left soon after.

I have no difficulty believing Carol thinks David is the love of her life. She always thinks whoever she's with is the love of her life. What I don't buy is David's feelings for Carol. He may have thought she was something special when they were teenagers but he wasn't impressed with how she turned out as an adult. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu19GUsa0Vo

Their past together has been retconned. They dated very briefly as teenagers and it produced Bianca. David gave Carol money for an abortion and that was that. Recently the writers have made out like they dated for years but that wasn't the story as described in the 90's.
This, basically.

I have never bought that David loves, or has ever loved Carol. That is where the retcon was. David Wicks was always a commitment-phobe; and he and Carol only got together in the 90s after David had been shunned by the entire Square.
bass55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 16:03
Kim_x
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,444
Apparently so - it seems the backstory was Carol was a bit promiscuous so they weren't a great love story and Bianca might not have even been David's.

Retcon seems to come up a lot but I have no problem with it provided the retcon in question is explained. That way it isn't as someone else said, used to justify the dislike of a story.
Kim_x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 16:07
perpet83
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 169
I agree with that but I think it should be made clear that this is what's happening rather than letting new viewers think differently. Here's another clip where David consoles Alan for falling in love with an old slapper https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygi_TxtHPCE He really didn't care too much for Carol in the 90's
I think it's also fair to say that we can say horrible things about people when we are angry or upset with them, even if we don't mean it and care about them deep down. I know I can. In that moment David was aggrieved with Carol for keeping from him the knowledge that he was a father for 16/17 tears, and subsequently trying to stop him forming a relationship with Bianca. He may not have meant what he said deep down. Not that I'm saying he was in love with Carol at that point. The truth was probably somewhere in between.
perpet83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 16:10
perpet83
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 169
Apparently so - it seems the backstory was Carol was a bit promiscuous so they weren't a great love story and Bianca might not have even been David's.

Retcon seems to come up a lot but I have no problem with it provided the retcon in question is explained. That way it isn't as someone else said, used to justify the dislike of a story.
Umm. you can be promiscuous and still have great love stories. I'm extremely promiscuous yet I've still been deeply in love. One doesn't preclude the other. She may have been sleeping around at the time but only really had feelings for David.
perpet83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 16:16
secretagent
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,410
Those clips show the David that I remember. That David would never have settled for Carol, especially a sick Carol.
secretagent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 16:22
perpet83
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 169
Those clips show the David that I remember. That David would never have settled for Carol, especially a sick Carol.
That David was a young man in his 30s. Now he is middle-aged and probably looking for something different. And just because Carol isn't the most glamorous of women doesn't mean he's settling. I'm not a fan of the retconning of Carol as some sort of saintly matriarch but she is one of the more intelligent characters on the square and she's tough, resourceful and resilient. As people get older their priorities change.
perpet83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 16:55
Leon Bilson
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,025
David wasn't interested in Carol in the 1990s because he was selfish and commitment-shy. Only now he is older he has wanted to change his ways and settle. He probably did love Carol even then, but he has always loved himself and his unstable, unpredictable lifestyle more. Since Carol has always had feelings for him and he has a ready-made family with her, it makes sense that it is with her that he wants to put things right at this stage of his life.

The only thing I do not completely buy is that David is a bigger love to Carol than Alan was. Alan took on her three kids and they were a rock solid couple until they both cheated and split up off-screen. I accept that there will always be a spark with David, but these days she never mentions Alan, as though he was nothing.
Leon Bilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 17:37
ME1234567
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,037
David wasn't interested in Carol in the 1990s because he was selfish and commitment-shy. Only now he is older he has wanted to change his ways and settle. He probably did love Carol even then, but he has always loved himself and his unstable, unpredictable lifestyle more. Since Carol has always had feelings for him and he has a ready-made family with her, it makes sense that it is with her that he wants to put things right at this stage of his life.

The only thing I do not completely buy is that David is a bigger love to Carol than Alan was. Alan took on her three kids and they were a rock solid couple until they both cheated and split up off-screen. I accept that there will always be a spark with David, but these days she never mentions Alan, as though he was nothing.
I agree.
ME1234567 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 18:00
Ozboz3
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: London
Posts: 957
It's not a retcon, David loves Carol and Carol loves David!
Ozboz3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 20:53
Kmc1978
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Where there's caffeine
Posts: 5,816
David wasn't interested in Carol in the 1990s because he was selfish and commitment-shy. Only now he is older he has wanted to change his ways and settle. He probably did love Carol even then, but he has always loved himself and his unstable, unpredictable lifestyle more. Since Carol has always had feelings for him and he has a ready-made family with her, it makes sense that it is with her that he wants to put things right at this stage of his life.

The only thing I do not completely buy is that David is a bigger love to Carol than Alan was. Alan took on her three kids and they were a rock solid couple until they both cheated and split up off-screen. I accept that there will always be a spark with David, but these days she never mentions Alan, as though he was nothing.
I agree with this and would add that part of the reason for his selfish, commitment-shy behaviour was his unsettled upbringing. Pat was always described as being very promiscuous throughout his childhood. It wouldn't have left the best impression of what love really looks like. I've felt that David finally settling down is meant to be partly due to the fact that he was able to make peace with his mum before she died which in turn has made him reflect on his own life and choices.
Kmc1978 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 20:57
TillyMint63
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: liverpool
Posts: 12
Am I the only one who had to google 'retcon'?
TillyMint63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 21:13
WhisperingGhost
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,531
Am I the only one who had to google 'retcon'?
Nope
WhisperingGhost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 21:34
guestofseth
Unregistered
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5,282
I feel we are going to get a conversation between the two in the next two episodes, where they address what people are saying and realise that they've been kidding themselves. I still don't see David dying, I think the heart attack is just a catalyst for the realisation. I think Carol is trying to get back the past and David is trying to be someone he's not, someone Pat would be proud of, and they will both realise this causing David to leave.
guestofseth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 21:35
Bertypop
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bridge Street
Posts: 3,085

What IS a giant retcon, IMO, is this whole St. Carol who was always such a great mother and so reliable and did everything for her family idea. She completely abandoned all of them except Billie for YEARS. Yes, Bianca had slept with her fiance but she was very young at the time. And Sonia and Robbie had done nothing to deserve it. She did nothing for Sonia when she became a teenage Mum, then coldly (albeit silently, via telephone) refused to help or console her when she was distraught at having given Chloe/Rebecca up , simply judging and blaming her for the whole thing. And she didn't show up for Sonia's wedding, even though Billie went. And when Bianca was homeless and on the streets with her own grandchildren she still refused to help, yet now she's the world's best mum/granny. Please. To me, that's the real retcon here.
To be fair, Carol is the only person who is saying that she is a great mother and does everything for her family.

She's constantly pointing it out. I still believe that if one of them did something she didn't agree with, she'd let them know it, in much the similar way she's done in the past.

What has happened, though, is she's mellowed a bit - but also seen the regard Pat was held in. She wants her family to think of her in the same way they still think of Pat, but knows she'll never actually measure up.
Bertypop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 21:52
Dr K Noisewater
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,730
The retcon accusations come from the fact David was never really into Carol when they were on the show together previously. That clip posted occured after Carol had found out her husband had cheated on her and the square had found out about David cheating with Cindy. They were both using each other and quickly realised it was a mistake. David left soon after.

I have no difficulty believing Carol thinks David is the love of her life. She always thinks whoever she's with is the love of her life. What I don't buy is David's feelings for Carol. He may have thought she was something special when they were teenagers but he wasn't impressed with how she turned out as an adult. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu19GUsa0Vo

Their past together has been retconned. They dated very briefly as teenagers and it produced Bianca. David gave Carol money for an abortion and that was that. Recently the writers have made out like they dated for years but that wasn't the story as described in the 90's.
100% this.

David and Carol were just never that into each other in the 90s yes they had been together as teenagers and were each others 'first love' but thats where it ended. David was horrible to Carol for the majority of his 90s stint. That first clip the OP posted is taken a bit out of context - Carol had just discovered Alan had been having an affair and David's affair with Cindy had just ended, both were feeling lonely and vulnerable and sought comfort in each other but it was very short lived. Other than that VERY brief fling in late 96 neither David nor Carol showed any interest in the other throughout their entire 1990s stint. The love of Carol's life at this time was Alan he was one who stuck around when all the other fathers of her kids scarpered. Alan was her rock her knight in shining armor, David was an immature idiot who spent his time chasing after much younger glamorous women. Since David's 2012 return they have tried to make David and Carol into the new Pat and Frank. Pat and Frank were a couple who loved one another from being teenagers right through into their dotage but external circumstances beyond their control kept forcing them apart. The writers are trying to portray David and Carol as the same type of star-crossed lovers but it simply doesnt fit with the 90s versions of both characters.
Dr K Noisewater is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 21:54
perpet83
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 169
To be fair, Carol is the only person who is saying that she is a great mother and does everything for her family.

She's constantly pointing it out. I still believe that if one of them did something she didn't agree with, she'd let them know it, in much the similar way she's done in the past.

What has happened, though, is she's mellowed a bit - but also seen the regard Pat was held in. She wants her family to think of her in the same way they still think of Pat, but knows she'll never actually measure up.
I've heard Bianca and Sonia say it multiple times lately. While I appreciate she is their Mum and while she is sick they are inclined to look sympathetically upon her, she was, up until her 2010 return, a pretty appalling mother to them. Yes she has mellowed like Pat, but Pat's kids, unlike Carol's, never forgot her failings as a mother.
perpet83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-05-2014, 22:03
perpet83
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 169
100% this.

David and Carol were just never that into each other in the 90s yes they had been together as teenagers and were each others 'first love' but thats where it ended. David was horrible to Carol for the majority of his 90s stint. That first clip the OP posted is taken a bit out of context - Carol had just discovered Alan had been having an affair and David's affair with Cindy had just ended, both were feeling lonely and vulnerable and sought comfort in each other but it was very short lived. Other than that VERY brief fling in late 96 neither David nor Carol showed any interest in the other throughout their entire 1990s stint. The love of Carol's life at this time was Alan he was one who stuck around when all the other fathers of her kids scarpered. Alan was her rock her knight in shining armor, David was an immature idiot who spent his time chasing after much younger glamorous women. Since David's 2012 return they have tried to make David and Carol into the new Pat and Frank. Pat and Frank were a couple who loved one another from being teenagers right through into their dotage but external circumstances beyond their control kept forcing them apart. The writers are trying to portray David and Carol as the same type of star-crossed lovers but it simply doesnt fit with the 90s versions of both characters.
I posted the clip because I had read multiple comments on here that David and Carol never had a relationship and that Bianca was the product of a meaningless bunk up, but the clip proves that Carol at least did see David as her childhood sweetheart The fact that she had that picture of them together proves that there was more to it, and the fact that she kept it proves that she was clearly sentimental about their relationship even many years later, and she described him as her first love. I realise they weren't that into each other during their 90s stint, but the idea of them having been important to each other in the past hasn't just been magicked out of thin air. I don't see any intention to make them the new Frank and Pat. They are totally different characters with a different relationship and their story will progress very differently. And while they are both interesting characters played by extremely talented actors, neither has the larger-than-life qualities to be the new Frank and Pat!
perpet83 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply




 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:59.