[wavejockglw]

"O2's enterprise division has clinched a number of major multi-million pound deals in both the public and private sectors.

Speaking at the announcement of O2's Q1 results, CEO Ronan Dunne said the division had seen 50% growth year on year boosted by a welter of deals including the operator's largest ever mobile acquisition contract with support services company Carillion. The deal sees O2 providing 15,000 mobiles to Carillion's employees. Dunne said: 'In this industry there are less than half a dozen contracts of that size. It is significant.'"

Full Story:
http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/news-li...rise_wins.aspx

[jchamier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavejockglw

"O2's enterprise division has clinched a number of major multi-million pound deals in both the public and private sectors.

Poor sods with that voice quality

Bet these large contracts come with incredible pricing.

[Thine Wonk]

Although this sounds like good news, O2 added 100,000 fewer contract customers in Q1 2014 than it did in Q1 2013. Still, well done to them for signing up big business customers.

[moox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchamier

Poor sods with that voice quality

Bet these large contracts come with incredible pricing.

Presumably none of these customers care about data speeds outside of towns and cities either...

[jchamier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moox

Presumably none of these customers care about data speeds outside of towns and cities either...

Well not those who run the negotiation!

[Thine Wonk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchamier

Well not those who run the negotiation!

I bet those O2 branded AEG venues come in handy for corporate hospitality too! just like the Voda F1 sponsorship used to, and hence access to exclusive tickets helped make some potential clients very happy!

Call quality? I don't hear any issues (over the noise of the F1 cars or the arena show) the client says...

Of course I'm joking, I'm not suggesting those things help seal corporate deals. I'm sure all concerned remain impartial.

[wavejockglw]

I think major businesses spending millions of pounds on mobile communications contracts yearly research their suppliers and after careful consideration place their business with minimum service requirements conditions. The business market is not similar to the personal communications sphere and if a company with 15,000 accounts makes a deal with a provider they don't so with the same criteria as an individual buying a smartphone. It's very likely that a 15,000 account deal has been subject to scrutiny by independent analysis after a bidding process and it will have been awarded with strict service level conditions including heavy penalties for failure. O2 must be both component to provide the required levels of service and confident they can deliver and maintain them to agree to such a deal/deals.

Easy to make one liner put down remarks but deals like the ones listed by big reputable companies that rely on communication don't confirm the kind of performance a few personal users have stated and nor does the recent results published by Root Metrics in major markets surveyed this year.

[moox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchamier

Well not those who run the negotiation!

That's what I was thinking, I'm guessing they all live in London and daren't venture from it. Consequently the O2 service isn't that bad.

I think it's precisely the same for the company I work for. The mobility team work from an office in zone 6 which probably has Vodafone 4G by now. They have decided Vodafone is the ideal plan for the entire UK arm of the company. It doesn't work very well in the Reading office (there's coverage but call drops and slow data are common), and it's total rubbish if you travel. Since both offices make up a large part of their UK employee base, it's clear that they didn't really make a decision based on overall performance. Judging by the plans they offer to employees, they clearly aren't great negotiators as 4G isn't available and the data limits (pooled data) are pitiful, something like 200MB a month.

So despite being eligible for company paid service, I don't take it as I'd rather pay a bit and use a network that actually offers a decent service where I want to use it.

[moox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavejockglw

I think major businesses spending millions of pounds on mobile communications contracts yearly research their suppliers and after careful consideration place their business with minimum service requirements conditions. The business market is not similar to the personal communications sphere and if a company with 15,000 accounts makes a deal with a provider they don't so with the same criteria as an individual buying a smartphone. It's very likely that a 15,000 account deal has been subject to scrutiny by independent analysis after a bidding process and it will have been awarded with strict service level conditions including heavy penalties for failure. O2 must be both component to provide the required levels of service and confident they can deliver and maintain them to agree to such a deal/deals.

Easy to make one liner put down remarks but deals like the ones listed by big reputable companies that rely on communication don't confirm the kind of performance a few personal users have stated and nor does the recent results published by Root Metrics in major markets surveyed this year.

I work for a major company who tries to sell expensive things to other major companies. Hospitality is quite a way to win someone over, and the salespeople have nice expense accounts in order to pay for it all. Thousands of pounds a night is pocket change if it gets a sale. I can't comment on the decision making process from the other side, but I'd bet the free food/drink/tickets go a long way - keeping my company on side means more of the same next time there's a bit of budget that needs to be spent.

[wavejockglw]

I doubt if the above is how things work. Big companies make sure the service meets their needs wherever they use it. They have high level of service agreements and big penalties to ensure those are met. How can some be so naïve to think any business would seal a deal for 15,000 connections across the UK without doing the due diligence re performance levels and putting service level agreements in place.

As I stated, enterprise deals are not done on the same basis as a single smartphone purchase in a store and when a company the size of Carillion make a commitment to a 15,000 connection deal that means they have researched the market and employed experts to ensure their contracted network was suitable for purpose.

[Thine Wonk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavejockglw

I doubt if the above is how things work. Big companies make sure the service meets their needs wherever they use it. They have high level of service agreements and big penalties to ensure those are met. How can some be so naïve to think any business would seal a deal for 15,000 connections across the UK without doing the due diligence re performance levels and putting service level agreements in place.

As I stated, enterprise deals are not done on the same basis as a single smartphone purchase in a store and when a company the size of Carillion make a commitment to a 15,000 connection deal that means they have researched the market and employed experts to ensure their contracted network was suitable for purpose.

Thinking about this logically how would you explain the fact that O2 has had the most outages of note in recent years in the press (although admittedly not for a while) has less data coverage than EE geographically and by population and generally lower call quality.

SLAs of 99.9% uptime still allow for 8.45 hours a year down and I think generally every network has met that nationally this year.

If what you're saying is the case then what metrics to you think customers are signing up to O2 on the basis of that are not being met by Vodafone or EE, if as you say it's purely research based?

[Aye Up]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavejockglw

I doubt if the above is how things work. Big companies make sure the service meets their needs wherever they use it. They have high level of service agreements and big penalties to ensure those are met. How can some be so naïve to think any business would seal a deal for 15,000 connections across the UK without doing the due diligence re performance levels and putting service level agreements in place.

As I stated, enterprise deals are not done on the same basis as a single smartphone purchase in a store and when a company the size of Carillion make a commitment to a 15,000 connection deal that means they have researched the market and employed experts to ensure their contracted network was suitable for purpose.

You are correct enterprise deals are done on a different scale to that of SMB and consumers at large. The significance of the deal shouldn't be underestimated. Generally its always been the case that Vodafone has pretty much monopolised the enterprise market to itself. To get an organisation to change supplier O2 will have had to throw in a lot of wine and dining and an exceptional package to boot. I think people don't realise how big an undertaking it is for a company to move its entire account to another provider (again inertia is another reason Vodafone has the lionshare). The whole process is rigourously vetted to ensure continuity in the event of a problem (calls not routing to the right handsets etc). I have witnessed the problems that arise from a company shifting a 300 line account away from a company I worked for, again that wasn't an easy process.

Big enterprise accounts often have their own dedicated team at the network handling their affairs. I remember Aviva one year was looking to move away from Orange (I don't know if they are still there mind you), they had at my last count over 1000 lines (it was substantial to say the least although again may have changed). That said their procurement team (I think it were), were playing hard ball as they felt other networks would be able to provide a more comprehensive package and better end 2 end solution......naturally an account as big as this at risk isn't left to people on the front line...as far as I know it went right up the food chaoin quickly and heard no more. This was about 10 years ago mind you....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thine Wonk

Thinking about this logically how would you explain the fact that O2 has had the most outages of note in recent years in the press (although admittedly not for a while) has less data coverage than EE geographically and by population and generally lower call quality.

The press statement doesn't in fact really say much, I'm sure Vodafone and EE have had big wins in terms of corporate and large customers too.

You say O2 has less data coverage than EE? Do you base that on 3G or all frequencies? As far I was led to believe O2 when it got the first iPhone pretty much enabled EDGE overnight on all of its 2G masts....so data coverage would be wider reaching even if it is only 2G.

Vodafone and EE have had big wins......but I would imagine they will have some losses over the coming years as Government centralises its IT and Telecoms contracts. At the moment every police force in the country has their own procurement strategies, at some point come 2018 I believe it will all be moving to the one account, so that public sector account will be one of the largest when it is put out to tender.

most public sector accounts are u for renewal in the next few years, with the government centralising procurement it wil lead to bigger savings overall so they say. Though I think its a sham......one way or another the tax payer will lose out.

[Thine Wonk]

2G data is pretty useless these days, so I was referring to high speed data yes, and on a data network quality rating overall O2 isn't usually top, neither is it for uptime.

I was interested in what metrics we think O2 wins on that is encouraging these corporate clients over to O2. If the deal really is won on metrics and facts, what is it that O2 is able to achieve that Vodafone aren't (bearing in mind cornerstone), or that EE aren't?

[The Lord Lucan]

Wave your deluded if you think they do major research. I've been privy to several oil company deals (all networks bar Three) it does largely cone down to how low they can go cost wise, voice coverage and the sales hospitality. Nothing more.

This is a few medium sized deal and one huge one. Fair play on the latter but it's not the biggest deal out there by a long way.

Data coverage is still not a big thing for companies when it comes to these things (general staff phones). Only mission critical ie London Air Ambulance and say the Scottish Police phone/phablet deals for example are data coverage/data reliability researched (even extensively and expensively trialed before hand) they for example didn't go with the two poorest 3G/4G coveraged networks in the UK now did they..

I wouldn't say O2 is 100% Edge or even close. I see GPRS a lot of the time on train journeys north of Edinburgh.. That said, the others are not much better at having Edge... Although it's not as nessisary with EE seeing 3/4G coverage. EDGE should at least be the minimum nowadays. It's a shame there are so many long term 2G contracts on the go ie smart meters as we could start reclaiming that spectrum, smart meters for example as they become more popular even stop the ability to reduce the spectrum to each cell to the bare minimum. This will be a future headache!

[Aye Up]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thine Wonk

2G data is pretty useless these days, so I was referring to high speed data yes, and on a data network quality rating overall O2 isn't usually top, neither is it for uptime, so I was interested in what metrics we think O2 wins on that is encouraging these corporate clients over to O2. If the deal really is won on metrics and facts, what is it that O2 is able to achieve that Vodafone and EE aren't?

I am going to have to jump to O2's defense here, 2G data isn't useless when its EDGE...speed tests even on a Lumia 1020 bring back speeds around 200k or so. That is adequate for facebook and browsing "mobile web" (admittedly not streaming). It works fine for IM of any variation. For basic communication it works quite well in fact. Its a bit disingenuous to claim initially EE has wider data coverage only then to qualify it later.

But thats a choice people make, when compared for data against Vodafone, O2 is usually better because of the EDGE setup on 2G. EDGE on Vodafone well.....less said the better (3G and 4G brilliant mind you). EE is in a sweet spot at the moment as it has 2G backup on what could be upto double the amount of sites enabled on O2/Vodafone.....however as it moves forward it will even out.

Just so we're clear I am not biased in favour of any network....I have lines on them all and for where I live they isn't really much difference.

[Thine Wonk]

Fair comment on the data, I forget about 2G data as I personally dismiss it as unusable every time I've tried. However if you think it is better than that then I'll take your word for it. I just think taken in general terms EE's data network vs O2's in my eyes is worlds apart, but that's my view and I accept it might not be everyone's.

[Aye Up]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Lord Lucan

Wave your deluded if you think they do major research. I've been privy to several oil company deals (all networks bar Three) it does largely cone down to how low they can go cost wise, voice coverage and the sales hospitality. Nothing more.

Never in a million years would I ever have thought I would jump to wavejocks defense however so be it.....

You may have been privy to oil companies deals, however it isn't indicative of the industry at large.....I'd be interested in the time frame of these deals i.e. how long ago was the most recent one?

The reason I say this, I have witnessed it myself for the company I work for putting out a large contract in excess of 10000 lines being put to tender...naturally inviting all of the networks to put forward a proposal....I won't say who they went with, however research was done thoroughly. A large percentage of the lines were data critical, smaller around 1500 or so just needed a line only. When companies are invited to tender as wavejock says it is done to the minimum requirements of the company in question. The team drove a very hard bargain, as a result of the tender, costs on telecoms dropped by 30-40% depending on the area of the business it was in. When a tender was recieved coverage was at the top of the shopping list a long with costs, for crying out loud the most popular handset was a blackberry (in terms of data at least). The company costed any eventual move to other platforms like iPhone or Android. However due to the highly sensitive business they operated Blackberry was seen to be the most secure.....

Anyway I digress......large scale telecoms agreements are not done based on hospitality......do you really think a contract put out to tender is bought and sold on the basis of how great a business treats them? This isn't the middle east for crying out loud!

Every FTSE 100 company has an infrastructure/procurement team which handles all of these tenders.....they have a fiduciary responsibility to the board and shareholders at large to bring operating costs down and also research any potential deal.....generally below 20% is the expected....so yes Wavejock (for once) is very much correct in what he states.

I think I need a lie down after saying all that

[Aye Up]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thine Wonk

Fair comment on the data, I forget about 2G data as I personally dismiss it as unusable every time I've tried. However if you think it is better than that then I'll take your word for it. I just think taken in general terms EE's data network vs O2's in my eyes is worlds apart, but that's my view and I accept it might not be everyone's.

I think what you say there is probably accurate if we are looking at faster frequencies. Even then througput itself would likely be insanely better on EE due to the amount of masts they have in comparison to that of O2, less likely to suffer congestion as masts have a small coverage foot print. Data wise EE's network is worlds apart from O2's that we can agree on, as we know O2 and Vodafone have 10 years worth of underinvestment to catchup on. Balancing it out where areas have been upgraded to 4G for the big three networks I can honestly say difference is minimal...coverage is generally superb for EE/Voda/O2.

[The Lord Lucan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aye Up

Never in a million years would I ever have thought I would jump to wavejocks defense however so be it.....

You would have to ask for the most recent as it was the smallest. 4 weeks ago, Bibb y. 1500, Mostly Voda > O2. Cost the largest driving factor as Voda was on average 25% more. One of the main bases doesn't get 3G near it and the new office has had to have picos fitted....

It used to be my job.. Granted many moons ago but I still kick about with those who work at O2 & EE doing just this!

I'll agree on your last comment regarding like for like 4G where all 3 of them are present (outside london) between the networks it's much the same.

[Icaraa]

Well Vodafone have lost the BT enterprise account haven't they? I'm not sure how many lines they have but it's got to be roughly 30,000. They are moving to EE.

[c4rv]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aye Up

Never in a million years would I ever have thought I would jump to wavejocks defense however so be it.....

You may have been privy to oil companies deals, however it isn't indicative of the industry at large.....I'd be interested in the time frame of these deals i.e. how long ago was the most recent one?

We've just recently renewed 3,000 lines with vodaphone and speaking to my colleagues in telecoms, I agree with Lord Lucan that coverage and speed are way down on the list with cost being number one by far. Also there were a grand total of 2 people working on selecting technical aspect of the tender though more people from purchasing who worked out the cost. The whole process took less then 3 months from start to finish. Even though we have super strict rules on accepting hospitality from vendors I'm sure some of that still goes on.

[Aye Up]

Quote:

Originally Posted by c4rv

We've just recently renewed 3,000 lines with vodaphone and speaking to my colleagues in telecoms, I agree with Lord Lucan that coverage and speed are way down on the list with cost being number one by far. Also there were a grand total of 2 people working on selecting technical aspect of the tender though more people from purchasing who worked out the cost. The whole process took less then 3 months from start to finish. Even though we have super strict rules on accepting hospitality from vendors I'm sure some of that still goes on.

I think I was somewhat overzealous with my own assumptions, I take your point however regarding the relatively swift turn around of the tender. The businesses in the area I work aren't parrticularly popular with the public and their shareholders at the moment....which is why I said who I work for researched the deal even to the minute detail regarding coverage and eventual technology advancements, cost naturally is the largest factor. However again when hospitality is offered it is politely declined, as it in some respects amounts to a bribe, which is totally in breach of law and regulations.

What I found interesting however tenders were invited from wholesale resellers as well. There was one proposal which claimed to be able to access all UK networks (that I found hard to believe), anyway that proposal was so ridiculous it was shown a swift exit. I honestly didn't realise there was a market in a middle man so to speak that offer agreements depending on network of choice.

[c4rv]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aye Up

What I found interesting however tenders were invited from wholesale resellers as well. There was one proposal which claimed to be able to access all UK networks (that I found hard to believe), anyway that proposal was so ridiculous it was shown a swift exit. I honestly didn't realise there was a market in a middle man so to speak that offer agreements depending on network of choice.

I guess it depends on the size of business. If the contract was for 10 ro 50 or 100 lines, would you deal directly with the carriers, how about 500 or a 1,000 ? For business contracts where you are looking for bulk discounts the carriers are a pain to deal with but there are serious discounts available. I suspect O2 will be making a few percent at best on the 15,000 line contract. The will also be making money through bold on services and even through stuff like employee contracts. I know quite a few of my colleagues have their personal contracts with vodaphone because of the 20% discount.