Thats what came up when I googles Joans image?Unless thats a quirk because they appeared in the samefilm and may come up thus in the same google trawl

Was Joan in any other noteworthy films besides the one she was nominated for and the one you mentioned?

Joan's first appearance on film was Song of Russia, 1944, starring Robert Taylor, she got tenth billing. I have never seen it as I am not a fan of Taylor, even though he was Barbara's second and last husband.

In her next film The Bridge of San Luis Rey, 1944, she got ninth billing, the film starred Lynn Bari one of my favourite actresses who was never as big as she should have been.

After her hit in The Corn is Green she got fourth billing in The Strangers, after Sydney Greenstreet, Geraldine Fitzgerald and Peter Lorre.

Then came The Verdict, where she got third billing, again with Greenstreet and Lorre.

After The Other Love in 1947, she appeared with Susan Hayward, Robert Cummings and Agnes Moorehead in The Lost Moment.

That same year she appeared with Barry Sullivan and Belita in The Gangster, which I have never seen. What is interesting about this film is that 65th down the cast list and not even credited was 27 year old Shelley Winters as a cashier in her 18th role.

In 1948 Joan was fifth billed in Good Sam starring Gary Cooper and Ann Sheridan.

She didn't appear in another film until 1951 when she was third billed after John Drew Barrymore and Preston Foster in The Big Night.

In 1952 she starred with Paul Muni in Stranger on the Prowl.

After this she moved to TV and in 1956, eleven years after the film, she repeated her performance as Bessie Watty in the TV version of The Corn is Green.

In 1974, she returned to the screen for her last film, Burt Lancaster's The Midnight Man, in which she was seventh down the cast list.

Her last TV role was The Love Boat. 1980, I have a photo of her with co stars Farley Granger and Lorenzo Lamas, and she was still a stunning lady at 54.

I am glad that you gave me the opportunity to write about the lady that inspired what has become a very successful, and seemingly endless thread.

She may not have become as big a star as she deserved to be, but she was special enough to leave a lasting impression on me when I was just ten years old.

Judy Garland, Lana Turner and Ava Gardner both seemed to attract a lot of attention from the press and gossip mongers due to their endless love affairs, marriages, and divorces. I don't think that they revelled in it, and the difference between them and today's fame whores was that they had talent, they were always fascinating, and certainly never boring, unlike the ghastly, plastic, Price/Katona/Palmer-Tompkinson, etc.

Even Zsa, Zsa Gabor was entertaining in her own way.

Thanks Walter, I have just ordered the special edition of Laura.

I share your admiration for Clifton Webb, he had a style all of his own.

That is great, I know that you will love it!

I am sure that you have heard of Clifton's devotion to his mother Maybelle, they went everywhere together and he was devastated when she died at the ripe old age of 91.

Clifton was inconsolable, and grieved very publicly for a year, which moved Noel Coward to quip, "Poor Clifton, it is tragic to be orphaned at 72."

Yes Zsa Zsa Gabor certainly had/has a hard to define charm but you know when you see it!
I believe shes good enough to be classed as unique rather than the likes of Katie Price and Chantelle Houghton who are ten a penny and hence easily replaceable.

In terms of the threads origin Ms Joan Lorrings sad passing,your generous words are appreciated but its really me who should be thanking you.So much of the vitality and effort behind keeping the momentum in this thread going is down to you.You have been extremly generous with your time and effort and many of us are grateful

Joan certainly has had more to her career than I realised but as you say its a shame she wasnt the bigger star she was capable of being.

Ive noticed that you quite rightly have a sizeable list of actors who you feel deserved to go furthur in their careers in Hollywood.But realistically for that to happen then some of the other big stars of the era would have had to have shorter careers or not been rated so highly as to have an a list career and would have needed to be B listers,c listers etc.
So in your ideal world if you were in charge which stars do you think were significantly overrated and needed to be lower down the chain or whos career "high" should have been shorter in order to make space for more worthy contenders?

Ive also been meaning to ask you if your a fan of Mary Astor and for your general thoughts on her?A recognisible name whos mentioned quite little but I appreciate its christmas and you may presently be too busy to give a detailed reply at the moment.

I am sure that you know that this has been a labour of love on my part, but I could not have continued without your regular feedback, so it is certainly a two way success.

Very easy for me to name the most overrated and over praised stars, this is only my opinion of course, and I am sure that their fans will disagree with me, but here goes!

Ingrid Bergman, I just don't get it, and never did understand the adulation that she received, and any critic will agree that Barbara was robbed when Bergman won the Best Actress Oscar for Gaslight over Barbara in Double Indemnity. I can't even watch Casablanca because of her, in fact I stopped watching her in anything years ago.

Rita Hayworth! this so called "beautiful redhead" was totally reinvented and manufactured by Columbia Studios. She was in fact a black haired Spanish dancer who had her hairline raised through electrolysis and then dyed red. OK, she could dance, but her singing was dubbed in every film. As I have said before, to me the most beautiful redhead was Susan Hayward, and she was a terrific actress too. Yet nearly forty years after her death she seems to have been forgotten, while Hayworth still gets raves for the awful Gilda in which she unconvincingly mimes to "Put the Blame on Mame."

Liz Taylor was just one of the many pretty MGM girls in the 1950's appearing in mostly unremarkable films, apart from Father of the Bride, and A Place in the Sun which she did on loan out to Paramount. Then she divorced second husband Michael Wilding, and married producer Mike Todd, and then everything changed, and she began starring in more important films like Giant and Raintree County, although the latter was a colossal flop. She was filming Cat on a Hot Tin Roof when Todd was killed in a plane crash. The remainder of her career consisted of a couple more hit films, and plenty of flops, yet she managed to win two Best Actress Oscars, which was when I lost all belief in the Acadamy Awards.

So those are my top three overrated stars, as for underrated, Ida Lupino must top my list. Not only a terrific actress, but a talented director too, unfortunately as one of Warner's contract actresses she usually had third choice of roles after Bette and Barbara, although I thought that she was equally as good an actress as Bette, if not better.

My favourite British star was Jean Kent, who when she died last year aged 92 was the last of the Gainsborough Girls, who brightened up so many hit British films in the 1940's. Her last important role was in The Browning Version in 1951, but by 1956 at only 35, and still looking beautiful, she was billed under the title in Marilyn's The Prince and the Showgirl. If only she had gone to Hollywood like Deborah Kerr she may well have had a great career, instead she stayed here and was regularly in the theatre and on TV, even bringing some class to Crossroads for a time. At least she had a long and happy marriage to her Turkish husband Yusef, who was Stewart Granger's stunt double when he and Jean met in the set of "Caravan" in 1946. Granger was his best man when they married not long after.

I am a BIG fan of Mary Astor, and have her excellent autobiography, "A Life in Film" which I bought back in 1972. She was fabulous opposite Bette in The Great Lie for which she won a well earned Best Supporting Actress Oscar for her role as a neurotic, temperamental concert pianist. She and Bette really hit it off, and when she accepted her Oscar she thanked "Tchaikovsky and Bette Davis!"

She was wonderful in the best version of Little Women in 1949, in which she played the mother of June Allyson, Janet Leigh, Margaret O'Brien and Liz Taylor, who gave what I think was her best performance as the spoiled Amy.

When Robert Aldrich was planning Hush Hush, Sweet Charlotte, he had the idea of having Bette, Joan, and Barbara as the three leading actresses. Barbara read the small role of Jewel Mayhew, and in her own words, which I have in a taped interview said, "I read it, and didn't care to play it, so subsequently Mary Astor played the role."
Joan couldn't take Bette's hostility so she went sick and checked into a hospital, where from according to Bette, " she issued daily statements from her oxygen tent!"
Eventually, Bette persuaded her friend Olivia de Havilland to take over Joan's role, but I still think it would have been better with Joan, and I would loved to have seen her slap Bette, it just wasn't so much fun when Olivia did it.

Incidentally, that was Mary Astor's last screen appearance, she died of a chronic heart condition in the Motion Picture Country House, Wood land Hills, California in September 1987, she was 81.

Wasn't Elizabeth Taylor very ill shortly before she won her first oscar? I think there was a sympathy vote as a result?

Wasn't Ida Lupino British as well?

I think the sympathy might have been because she was recently widowded but Im not sure?I know she nearly died from pneumonia at one point but not sure when.

Yes, she won the Oscar for NOT dying in the London Clinic, certainly not for the lousy film, Butterfield 8, typical Hollywood hypocrisy.

As Shirley Maclaine who was also Nominated that year accurately quipped, "I lost the Oscar to a tracheotomy.

Yes, Ida was English, born in Camberwell. Her father was comedian Stanley Lupino, her Uncle was Lupino Lane, and her Godfather was Ivor Novello.

Thanks for the detailed reply Walter

Hush Hush Little Charlotte sounds like a dream film in its original conception but I respect Barbaras reasoning and right to decline the roe.Very much the case that Barbara could afford to be discerning and choosey about her roles at this stage.

I can just imagine Bette Davis leaving poor Joan Crawford at the end of her tether!
As a side note was there EVER a sign of Bettes enmity towards Joan Crawford ever thawing or softening even for a little while?Even just a little with age?

Would you class Mary Astor as a versatile actress?Its a shame shes not mentioned all that much considering she was clearly not a minor player.Was she similar to Bette and would that be the basis of them hitting it off or perhaps the reason Mary was overshadowded because Bette IF she was similar to Mary may have affected the scope for Mary to be more prominent careerwise.

Yes may the teamwork powering this thread keep it going endlessly for a bit longer!

Bette was still knocking Joan long after her death, she was once quoted as saying, "just because someone is dead doesn't make them a better person."

Some said that she was jealous of Joan's beauty and glamour, but who can say, I think that they just hated each other.

I think that Mary was an extremely accomplished actress, and I am sure that she and Bette respected each others talent and professionalism, but I don't think that it was so important to her, she just didn't care as much as Bette.

As Barbara once said of Bette, "She was always so ambitious, you knew she'd make it. She had a kind of creative ruthlessness that made her success inevitable."

If you want to see the lady that inspired this thread, you can get a copy of The Other Love for less than £10 from Amazon.co.uk. Joan gave a luminous performance as Celestine, and Barbara never looked more ravishing in a collection of gowns designed by Edith Head, plus a marvellous score by Miklos Rosza.

Merry Christmas to all on this thread. Thank you for the brilliant posts!

Thank you very much.Happy Christmas to you too
Please do keep popping back on here!


Bette and Joans personality clash sounds volcanic!No wonder its the stuff of hollywood legend.

I think jealousy may have played a significant part,maybe deep resentment is a better way of putting it.Would have been amazing to witness first hand!Did they ever date or marry the same men/actors?

Yes I think given that Joan Lorring is the original amiga and origin of this thread and given how passionately youve spoken of her I think I should and WILL order that film via amazon so thank you for the pointer.

Happy Christmas Walter hope you have an enjoyable happy day
I will still he hoping on here in the next few days but at unpredictable hours!

PS Just out of casual interest Do any of the hollywood stars especially the greats have their birthdays fall on 25th december do you know please?

Walter, you've mentioned several times throughout this thread that you read film books from youth to now, so I'm hoping you might recognise this book.

When I was a kid, my parents were huge film fans and had a library of film books.

My favourite book at the time was a thick oversize hardback of U.S. films and actors. My parents unfortunately binned their library during their divorce. Neither could remember the book now.

This pictorial book listed a b/w still of every American film possible per year in chronological order.

From the silent era through the Talkies to approx. the early 1960s. I remember seeing a large still of Peter McEnery pulling Hayley Mills behind him in The Moonspinners, released in 1964, in the last pages of the book. I'm reasonably sure all were studio films as I remember constant mentions of Paramount, Metro-Goldwyn/MGM, Fox Films/20th Century Fox, United Artists, RKO, Hal Roach Studios, Disney‎ and so on.

It also featured small gallery rows of actors from the silent era to the early 1960s with larger photos of major actors.

The ones I remember the most are those of Joan Crawford. As a ten-year-old, I amused myself by tracking the increasing thickness of her eyebrows and lips throughout the book. From the first photo of her in The Taxi Dancer (1927, silent) to the last photo of her in The Best of Everything (1959). Heh. But I digress.

All stills and photos were black and white. Every still had a caption that listed a film title, release year and the names of actors in each photo. In rows of actors, just their names.

Every major film - the big-budget kind - had a full page of stills, film poster, gallery of actors in major roles, a list of cast/characters and key crew, a brief synopsis and a list of awards. Such as Gold Diggers of 1933, Blood and Sand, Queen Christina, Ben Hur and other biblical epic films; Gone With the Wind, The Wizard of Oz, A Star is Born, A Place in the Sun, Duel in the Sun, Giant, The Grand Hotel, Wings (1927) and so on.

I can't describe the book cover as there wasn't a dust cover. It was missing long before I became interested in the book. The plain-cloth cover boards was grey with its book tile in a gold-tinted lettering on its spine.

There was an index at the back that spanned at least 15 pages. Definitely published before 1983. If I were to make a guess, it was probably published between the mid-1960s and the 1970s.

I'm fairly sure 'Pictorial' was part of the title.

It's not Daniel Blum's 'A Pictorial History of the Talkies'. I checked this book at a second-hand shop last year. The layout of the Blum book was almost identical to the one I remembered, but it's not the one because it doesn't feature the silent films at all. Nor does it have the Moonspinners still of Peter McEnery and Hayley Mills.

Plus, the Blum book is smaller - A4-sized - and about 200 pages fewer. The one I remembered was roughly A3-sized and about 500 pages long.

Do you recognise the book? I do hope so as I'd love to buy a copy for my library. Many thanks.

And lastly, many thanks - to you and Hildaonpluto - for contributing so much to this thread. I lurked all this time, but I really enjoyed reading your posts. Thanks for making time for this thread.

Merry Christmas and thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, it's been an education for me.

My friends think that I'm a mad film buff but they haven't met Walter.

I think that Walter could play the Robert Osborne role on a modified UK version of TCM.

Interestingly enough, Bette fell for Franchot Tone when they co starred in her Oscar winning film Dangerous. Years later she said, "I fell in love with Franchot both professionally and privately. Everything about him reflected his elegance, from his name to his manners. There was only problem, MGM's Crown Princess, Joan of Crawford had already set her sights on him, and in fact they got engaged during the filming of Dangerous. This was the beginning of Bette's resentment of Joan, who at that time was at the height of her beauty. I have a wonderful book called "Bette and Joan - The Divine Feud" by Shaun Considine, this gives you the whole story right from the beginning, a great read.

In the 1940's director Vincent Sherman was screwing them both, quite an achievement for a busy director who was married and a father. He said that they were easier to work with if he kept them satisfied.

Humphrey Bogart is the only actor who I know of who was born on Christmas Day, hard to believe that he would have been 115 years old tomorrow.

A Very Happy Christmas to you too, and Pandora, and all of you who have helped keep this thread going. Who knows, we could have had more than 200.000 viewers this time next year.

I've just received a message from a DS poster, who's an avid film-book collector. According to her, the book I described is indeed the Blum book.

The one I had as a kid was probably the new edition: 'A New Pictorial History of the Talkies', published in 1974, which features a chapter on silent films and more film stills.

The one I saw in a second-hand bookshop last year was probably the original edition: 'A Pictorial History of the Talkies', which doesn't feature that chapter.

The new edition is also heavier, bigger and thicker than the original edition. Mystery solved.

God, this place is fantastic. Thank you all.

I was about to write to you to say that it is the Daniel Blum book because I have it right in front of me now. My copy is a 1970 reprint and goes up to 1968, the original was printed in 1958, and I know that I bought my first copy in the early '60's.

Glad that you sorted that mystery out, and very happy that you are enjoying our thread, please do feel free to ask any questions that you have, and I will certainly try to answer them.

Thank you so much, and a Very Merry Christmas to you too!

I would be very happy to come out of retirement for a job like Robert Osborne's, but sadly our TCM is pathetic compared to the wonderful American version.

The highlight of our TCM recently has been a season of Tarzan films.

Gosh, the Blum book (A Pictorial History of the Talkies). Used to love flicking through that. Probably the first film book that awakened my interest.

On the subject of the Bette Davis/Mary Astor film "The Great Lie" that I mentioned yesterday, it is available from Amazon.co.uk for the ridiculously low price of £2.20. That is incredible value, and a must see for fans of either or both ladies, and if you aren't then you will be when you see it.

For once Bette is very calm and restrained, she said in a 1963 interview that the character she played in the film was the most like the real her. Although those of us who are familiar with the stories of the famous Davis temperament may find that a bit hard to swallow.

Mary is wonderfully over the top, especially when she marches into Bette's living room and makes a spirited attack on the piano by playing Tchaikovsky's Concerto No 1 without even being asked.

HaHa I had a feeling that there would be a man or men involved somehow near the rootcause of Joan and Bettes feud and this certainly points to that!Tied together with professional rivalry,personal ambition and particular personality types and youve got a highly toxic mix!

I love the idea of this thread still going in a years time and with an increasingly high number of views!Im happy to do my best to make it happen!

Going by some of your recent posts Walter it seems that amazon is a film lovers heaven regardless of what era they like and especially if their looking for a bargain.

Random question but no rush for you to answer.

I love the world of film quotes-What is your favourite quote please that the following actresses have said in dialogue in films in roles theyve played.

Barbara Stanwyck
Bette Davis
Olivia De Havilland
Lauren Bacall
Susan Hayward

Well at the moment I can only think of some juicy film quotes from Barbara and Bette, but then it is five minutes after midnight, and I have had quite a few drinks. Luckily I am feeling far to mellow to go to bed yet, so here are a few of my favourites:

Barbara's opening lines when we first see her in "The Lady Eve" - she is with her father, and fellow crook and card sharp Charles Coborn, and is watching her next victim, millionaire Henry Fonda climbing aboard the ship that they are travelling on.

"Gee I hope he's rich, and I hope he thinks he's a wizard at cards, and I hope that he has a big fat wife so that I don't have to dance in the moonlight with him. I don't know why it is that a sucker always steps on your feet. I don't see why I have to do all the dirty work, there must be plenty of rich old dames just waiting for you to push 'em around. Boy, would I love to see you giving some old harpy the three to one."

To which her father loftily replies, "Don't be vulgar Jean, let us be crooked but never common."

In a later scene when Henry Fonda has discovered that she is a crook, she plots her revenge and says to her father. "I wanna see that guy, I've got some unfinished business with him, I need him like the axe needs the turkey."

She then goes ahead and impersonates an English lady, complete with cut glass accent, tiara, and a busy feather boa, and he falls in love with this imposter all over again. If you haven't seen it, then I beg you to do so, it is my all time favourite film, and Barbara's greatest ever performance.

Two years later, in 1943 she starred as a stripper who rejoiced in the name of Dixie Daisy in William Wellman's murder mystery, "Lady of Burlesque." It also has some comic moments especially when Barbara clashes with a diva in the show who thinks that she is a cut above the rest of the showgirls. When she throws a bottle at a waiter in a Chinese restaurant opposite their dressing room, Barbara/Dixie really lets her have it. "I've stood for your knives in the back to keep a little peace around here but I'm through. If your not jumping on us your knocking out waiters who wouldn't look at you if you were rolled in batter and French fried!"

There is also another wonderful performance from Iris Adrian, a fellow stripper who is also Dixie's best friend. She has just witnessed a cat fight between two of the girls, and reprimands them as she swigs neat gin straight from the bottle. "And the next time you girls pull a free for all, don't pull it during my act. You know, it's tough enough trying to do something artistic for those lugs out there, without listening to you and Dolly calling each other by your right names."

In Dangerous, Bette plays a drunken actress who is saved by architect Franchot Tone. She is not exactly grateful, and when she sees his housekeeper, Alison Skipworth, she snaps, "And what are you? one of his sketches!"

There are so many great lines in All About Eve, and when Bette as ageing actress Margo Channing has a screaming row with the writer of her latest play because of her jealousy over ingénue Eve Harrington taking over the role of her understudy, she says,

"Well, I mean among other things, it must have been a revelation for you to have a 24 year old character played by a 24 year old actress. Also it must have been so new to you, so exciting, to have your lines read just as you wrote them, so full of meaning, fire and music. I'm lied to, attacked behind my back, accused of reading your silly dialogue as if it was the Holy Gospel. When you listen as if someone had written your play, whom do you have in mind, Arthur Miller, Sherwood, Beaumont and Fletcher?"
To which he replies, " Whatever makes you think Arthur Miller or Sherwood would stand for the nonsense I take from you? You'd better stock to Beaumont and Fletcher, they've been dead for 300 years."

Bette fires back with, "All playwright's should be dead for 300 years" to which he yells, "That would solve none of their problems because actresses never die, the stars never die and never change!" not letting him have the last word, Bette replies,
" You may change this star any time you want, for a new and fresh and exciting one, fully equipped with fire and music, anytime you want, starting with tonight's performance."
The playwright comes back with, "I shall never understand the weird process when a body with a voice suddenly fancies itself as a mind. Just exactly does an actress decide that they are her words she's saying and her thoughts she's expressing?"

To which the unstoppable Margo Channing now in full flow replies, "Usually at the point when she has to rewrite and rethink them to keep the audience from leaving the theatre."

She then goes to her lover Bill Sampson, and enquiring sarcastically about Eve who has fled the theatre asks, "And where is Princess Fire and Music, the kid, junior? I must have frightened her away, poor little flower, dropped her petals and folded her tent"

Earlier in the evening at a party she was hosting for her lover's return from Hollywood, the playwright had commented on the atmosphere that evening as being "very Macbethish". Bette sashays to the top of the stairs, knocks back her drink, poses dramatically, and utters that immortal line, "Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy night!"

Great film, and a Great performance!

This has taken me nearly two hours to complete, it is 1.55am.

It was well worth the two hours, what a fantastic read! That's a brilliant quote from The Lady Eve - my favourite moment in the film was Barbara's entire monologue while she was watching Henry Fonda through the binoculars. There's something quite brilliant about her delivery, and she won me over entirely at that point. I could see so easily why you rave about her!

I was watching The Lady Vanishes last night again, it's such a brilliant film. What do you know about the stars of the film Walter? Michael Redgrave's family of course are well known, but I'm afraid to say I've never seen another film with either him or Margaret Lockwood.