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Chelsea Supporters Thread (Part 5) |
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#5926 |
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,434
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To be fair, he has been more positive and added some 'end product' to his endless running this season. That is all i was asking from him!
Just endless running round the pitch with no real purpose is not what should be good enough for Chelsea! |
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#5927 |
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Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 58
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In all honesty Chelsea are struggling due to a system that Mourinho has put in place.
I believe that the reason why Chelsea's defending has gone to the crapper this season is because individually the defenders have been average as they have instincts to defend reactively rather than proactively. Cahill and Terry in particular like to drop off so that they are not beaten for pace by the faster players in the league. It worked back in 2004-07 because you have tactically astute players like Makalele, Essien, Tiago but Chelsea don't have that now. In 13/14 the defensive mindset worked because Chelsea had Luiz and Matic as a double screen, Luiz is a physical beast unlike Mikel who is slower to cover so you had a very good double screen in Matic+Luiz. Matic, Mikel and Fabregas midfield trio was never going to work, never has. Chelsea tried it against Liverpool in the league cup semi final and Chelsea were dominated at Anfield, very lucky to get a point there. The issue there is Fabregas at AM, Oscar plays at AM because the system involves Oscar moving wide across the flanks to overload it which gives space for Hazard to do his thing, Willian moves inward too which gives space for Ivanovic on the right hand side (where generally he offers little in an attacking sense other than set pieces but at least you have somebody free in an advanced position). Fabregas is obviously not energetic enough to do the pressing that Oscar offers(which then gives deeper lying oppositions midfielders time to do their thing) and you also have the issue of Fabregas having to play in a wider position(which he isn't suited to doing based on his time at Barcelona and at Chelsea, the game vs United at Stamford Bridge e.g. he was fairly useless). In reality Chelsea need a more proactive system in defending to make up for the fact that the midfielders are not totally suited to the style that Mourinho has put in. The football played in the first half of last season was more reminiscent of what Chelsea should be playing compared to the more defensive setup Chelsea played for almost the entirety of 2015. |
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#5928 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,605
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But he has never just run around the pitch with no real purpose. He was a massively important player since near enough day one.
All i could see was someone running round the pitch doing nothing of any real importance. |
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#5929 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 58
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Furthermore with Willian, his end product has never been the greatest, which can probably be attributed to the fact he plays at RW, does a lot of defensive work, when at Shaktar he was the main creative influence there and played either at LW/no.10. He didn't have a good goalscoring record there either though.
He does have his issues in the final third, but he's also capable of moments of brilliance(free kicks, long shots etc). Weird player, you get circa 7/10 from him every game. Pedro has issues with taking on his man with pace and acting positive. He does a lot of defensive work too and is a tidy player. His main attribute in decision making in the final third is poor though which is probably due to confidence and playing deeper than he was at Barcelona. |
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#5930 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Richmond, Surrey.
Posts: 13,814
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I don't understand this point at all!
It is not styles of play that win titles, it's having very good players in a side that is well balanced without serious weaknesses. Arsenal have not been winning titles because of their style of play, it's because they had glaring weaknesses and their players were simply not as good as the ones that were winning titles for them. Under Rafa [no, i don't want to go into all that up again please ] our problem was not anything to do with Hazard, Mata and Oscar. it was in front and behind them that was the problem! His first season, Oscar had by far his best season for us! Mata was scoring and creating goals for fun and Hazard was full of potential. We had found the best position for Luiz. We needed to develop this in the years to follow by signing more and more technically gifted players. If we had added a world class striker scoring 25 goals a season for us and a couple of mobile, fast defensive midfielders to what we were building we would have been good enough to win a title or two and another CL title along the way. A world class striker in front of Mata, Hazard and Oscar would have scared any team in Europe! I was talking more about our quest to play a similar kind of football as Barcelona that seemed to be the idea a few years ago. We appeared to forget that our best team was built around having one of the best defences the Premiership has ever seen, along with a strong midfield. The problem for Mourinho was that when he returned that midfield/defence was nothing like the one he had left us with. As you say at the beginning of your post, it's all about balance. You could have Messi x 10 but it probably wouldn't win you anything. As Eric Cantona said (though he was misquoted, it wasn't meant as an insult) all teams need their water carriers. |
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#5931 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,145
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What do you think of this article, it seems to sum up your problems quite well I think.
http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.c...oints-analysis |
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#5932 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,681
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'Send in the tanks' is entirely accurate (apart from Luiz, of course.)
> Getting rid of high character players (Čech/Luiz), creative talents (Mata), players with immense potential (Lukaku and De Bruyne) and decent squad options (Schürrle/Bertrand) for those who have come in (Cuadrado, Salah, Pedro, Djilobodji, Luis, Rahman etc.) highlights the decline in quality. Obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I assume Chelsea have a team of extremely well paid scouts, analysts and directors making decisions about who we sign. They purportedly know more than the collective opinion of Chelsea fans combined. Yet, we are at a point where actually shifting deadwood would improve the squad dramatically. To allow things to deteriorate to this point is borderline negligence. < |
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#5933 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Richmond, Surrey.
Posts: 13,814
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What do you think of this article, it seems to sum up your problems quite well I think.
http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.c...oints-analysis ![]() For example.. "Chelsea are not built to tiki-taka. Chelsea are built to pulverise teams. Trying to play like Barcelona without the very best players stylistically is never going to work in the Premier League. Someone on the board must have realised this by now? We have won trophies in a manner that does not correlate with the personality of the squad they are trying to construct." I don't agree with everything he says though. I hardly think we could have given much time to our young players this season given our atrocious start and precarious position in the table. Just because the experienced players are not playing up to the standard we know they are capable of, it's still a big gamble to play unknown youngsters when you're desperate for points. |
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#5934 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West London
Posts: 5,660
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Totally agree. We lost our way after Ancelotti left.
We were a power team but Roman got the bug of Barcelona. |
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#5935 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 58
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It's not as simple as that though. You can play a style like that if you are willing to press off the ball like Barcelona do. The issue is that we are unable to pressurise for long periods because in order to do that you need to play a high line to stay compact between the lines, high line + John Terry=disaster as AVB surely realised. The central midfield players ends up being disconnected with the 4 attackers because of this, so often teams find it easy to play past Chelsea and hit Chelsea on the counter/direct football(Everton and Liverpool matches at stamford bridge)
Really the issue is that with John Terry, Branislav Ivanovic and Gary Cahill who have been taught to be reactive defenders(i.e. backing off challenges so that they're not beat for pace) rather than proactive defenders(i.e. Sergio Ramos, Thiago Silva, etc.) the defence is always going to struggle playing a more attacking style of play(hence the revert to types). A style like Barcelona's works because from the back up to the front they are tactically drilled to play that style(rather than half taught then going back to type after every bad defeat like Mourinho did). If Barcelona defenders were backing off and sitting back like Chelsea did and the front 3 was completely disconnected to the middle three like Chelsea have with their 6 defenders and 4 attackers at times you end up with the issues that Chelsea have. Regardless, that is no excuse for Chelsea's league position this season. Player recruitment is a pathetic excuse for Chelsea being 1 point off relegation in december, it's an excuse for Chelsea not making top 4, but not for being in a relegation dogfight in december. |
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#5936 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 58
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I don't understand this point at all!
It is not styles of play that win titles, it's having very good players in a side that is well balanced without serious weaknesses. Arsenal have not been winning titles because of their style of play, it's because they had glaring weaknesses and their players were simply not as good as the ones that were winning titles for them. Under Rafa [no, i don't want to go into all that up again please ] our problem was not anything to do with Hazard, Mata and Oscar. it was in front and behind them that was the problem! His first season, Oscar had by far his best season for us! Mata was scoring and creating goals for fun and Hazard was full of potential. We had found the best position for Luiz. We needed to develop this in the years to follow by signing more and more technically gifted players. If we had added a world class striker scoring 25 goals a season for us and a couple of mobile, fast defensive midfielders to what we were building we would have been good enough to win a title or two and another CL title along the way. A world class striker in front of Mata, Hazard and Oscar would have scared any team in Europe! Probably could have done with Willian for a bit of pace too as that side were a little slow. Say Sturridge was played and stayed fit or we got Costa a little earlier we probably would have 2 titles on the bounce. The best teams in terms of personnel, mental maturity and balance win titles. Style of play is not the main factor, although it does have an effect. |
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#5937 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,402
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Completely agree.
Probably could have done with Willian for a bit of pace too as that side were a little slow. Say Sturridge was played and stayed fit or we got Costa a little earlier we probably would have 2 titles on the bounce. The best teams in terms of personnel, mental maturity and balance win titles. Style of play is not the main factor, although it does have an effect. Nb, I agree with your final paragraph, and this is why the two giants in the north west are not challenging for the title. They re players and squads are not strong enough. Chelsea this season is a rule unto itself. |
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#5938 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West London
Posts: 5,660
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Quote:
It's not as simple as that though. You can play a style like that if you are willing to press off the ball like Barcelona do. The issue is that we are unable to pressurise for long periods because in order to do that you need to play a high line to stay compact between the lines, high line + John Terry=disaster as AVB surely realised. The central midfield players ends up being disconnected with the 4 attackers because of this, so often teams find it easy to play past Chelsea and hit Chelsea on the counter/direct football(Everton and Liverpool matches at stamford bridge)
Really the issue is that with John Terry, Branislav Ivanovic and Gary Cahill who have been taught to be reactive defenders(i.e. backing off challenges so that they're not beat for pace) rather than proactive defenders(i.e. Sergio Ramos, Thiago Silva, etc.) the defence is always going to struggle playing a more attacking style of play(hence the revert to types). A style like Barcelona's works because from the back up to the front they are tactically drilled to play that style(rather than half taught then going back to type after every bad defeat like Mourinho did). If Barcelona defenders were backing off and sitting back like Chelsea did and the front 3 was completely disconnected to the middle three like Chelsea have with their 6 defenders and 4 attackers at times you end up with the issues that Chelsea have. Regardless, that is no excuse for Chelsea's league position this season. Player recruitment is a pathetic excuse for Chelsea being 1 point off relegation in december, it's an excuse for Chelsea not making top 4, but not for being in a relegation dogfight in december. Chelsea's position this season is probably down to a few things with the main one being the players not performing. Chelsea's best teams have been strong defensively with pace and power in midfield and attack. That's what this team needs to get back to. Big job for someone to turn it around and get in the right players. |
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#5939 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 58
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My god you make football sound complicated. What was up with the defending last season when we won the league in a canter. Err nothing.
Chelsea's position this season is probably down to a few things with the main one being the players not performing. Chelsea's best teams have been strong defensively with pace and power in midfield and attack. That's what this team needs to get back to. Big job for someone to turn it around and get in the right players. Look at the amount of goals conceded in the league under Mourinho's first spell and his second spell if you want any proof of that. Or how Chelsea conceded to a 10 man PSG(twice) Losing 5-3 to Spurs would have never happened in Mous first spell for the reasons I already stated. Quote:
So are you downplaying the role of coaching here if the recruitment policy is good?
Nb, I agree with your final paragraph, and this is why the two giants in the north west are not challenging for the title. They re players and squads are not strong enough. Chelsea this season is a rule unto itself. You can see by Hiddink just coming in, Chelsea have not lost since, maybe tactically he has improved them, or most likely he has motivated them some more. |
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#5940 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West London
Posts: 5,660
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Loads of things were wrong with the defending. Cahill was dropped and a lot of Chelsea fans were complaining about Ivanovic.
Look at the amount of goals conceded in the league under Mourinho's first spell and his second spell if you want any proof of that. Or how Chelsea conceded to a 10 man PSG(twice) Losing 5-3 to Spurs would have never happened in Mous first spell for the reasons I already stated. . We lost 5-3 to Spurs because the midfield was far too open. He changed it after that and we won the league in a canter, if you remember.. |
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#5941 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 58
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Sorry but that's nonsense. What games did you go to where the fans were complaining about Ivanovic last season ? He was outstanding last season.
We lost 5-3 to Spurs because the midfield was far too open. He changed it after that and we won the league in a canter, if you remember.. 14/15 32 goals conceded. 13/14 27 goals conceded. A large amount of the goals conceded last season was down to Ivan being either too high up the pitch or backing off allowing teams to double up on them. It's gone onto this season but Ivanovic has not had the goals to cover it up. |
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#5942 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West London
Posts: 5,660
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Midfield was far too open, you check what I said about Chelsea's style and how the midfield is disconnected to the attack I am basically saying the same thing. Check statistically the difference between Mous first spell and his second spell in goals conceded. 15 goals 04/05, 22 goals 05/06. 24 goals 06/07.
14/15 32 goals conceded. 13/14 27 goals conceded. A large amount of the goals conceded last season was down to Ivan being either too high up the pitch or backing off allowing teams to double up on them. It's gone onto this season but Ivanovic has not had the goals to cover it up. Strange that Ivan and Cahill were both in the PFA team of the season. How did that happen. Whatever stats you wish to give, bottom line is we were Champions. That's the end goal right ? |
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#5943 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 58
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Well it could of course be as simple as having a better squad first time around.
Strange that Ivan and Cahill were both in the PFA team of the season. How did that happen. Whatever stats you wish to give, bottom line is we were Champions. That's the end goal right ? Cahill got dropped midway through the season with Zouma in place for a reason. Ivanovic was in there for his height on set pieces(which got him goals for his attacking contribution) and goal kicks. Yeah it's an end goal, although I'm sure Chelsea would have liked to do better in europe. Had a better team than last time yet lost to PSG. |
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#5944 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West London
Posts: 5,660
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Yeah, a better midfield defensively as well as individual defenders. Was just giving an explanation as to why the defence was better.
Cahill got dropped midway through the season with Zouma in place for a reason. Ivanovic was in there for his height on set pieces(which got him goals for his attacking contribution) and goal kicks. Yeah it's an end goal, although I'm sure Chelsea would have liked to do better in europe. Had a better team than last time yet lost to PSG. We won it with probably our worse team. Others were far better but we didn't win. |
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#5945 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Richmond, Surrey.
Posts: 13,814
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Quote:
It's not as simple as that though. You can play a style like that if you are willing to press off the ball like Barcelona do. The issue is that we are unable to pressurise for long periods because in order to do that you need to play a high line to stay compact between the lines, high line + John Terry=disaster as AVB surely realised. The central midfield players ends up being disconnected with the 4 attackers because of this, so often teams find it easy to play past Chelsea and hit Chelsea on the counter/direct football(Everton and Liverpool matches at stamford bridge)
Really the issue is that with John Terry, Branislav Ivanovic and Gary Cahill who have been taught to be reactive defenders(i.e. backing off challenges so that they're not beat for pace) rather than proactive defenders(i.e. Sergio Ramos, Thiago Silva, etc.) the defence is always going to struggle playing a more attacking style of play(hence the revert to types). A style like Barcelona's works because from the back up to the front they are tactically drilled to play that style(rather than half taught then going back to type after every bad defeat like Mourinho did). If Barcelona defenders were backing off and sitting back like Chelsea did and the front 3 was completely disconnected to the middle three like Chelsea have with their 6 defenders and 4 attackers at times you end up with the issues that Chelsea have. Regardless, that is no excuse for Chelsea's league position this season. Player recruitment is a pathetic excuse for Chelsea being 1 point off relegation in december, it's an excuse for Chelsea not making top 4, but not for being in a relegation dogfight in december. As you say, the system is based around possession and a high press. As Pep Guardiola said "You win the ball back when there are thirty metres to their goal not eighty". But that takes players who know the system inside out. I've always said, it was probably more remarkable to watch Barcelona without the ball than with it. The way they hunted in packs to get the ball back, few (if any) teams have ever matched them. It's exhausting apart from anything else, and I don't think it really works in the PL. That doesn't mean you can't borrow things from the system and adept them accordingly. Which I guess was Mourinho's intention. But our roots are in playing a different style, and don't forget Barcelona themselves are questioning whether the days of tiki-taka are over. With the strikers they possess now, they could play any bloody system.
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#5946 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 58
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You also have to remember that Barcelona's tiki-taka style began with Johan Cruyff during his tenure as manager from 1988 to 1996. It's taken years to develop. Their youth academy concentrated on producing generations of technically talented (often physically small) players with excellent touch, vision and passing, who excel at maintaining possession. You can't hope to emulate that in a few years by trying to buy players who appear to fit the style.
As you say, the system is based around possession and a high press. As Pep Guardiola said "You win the ball back when there are thirty metres to their goal not eighty". But that takes players who know the system inside out. I've always said, it was probably more remarkable to watch Barcelona without the ball than with it. The way they hunted in packs to get the ball back, few (if any) teams have ever matched them. It's exhausting apart from anything else, and I don't think it really works in the PL. That doesn't mean you can't borrow things from the system and adept them accordingly. Which I guess was Mourinho's intention. But our roots are in playing a different style, and don't forget Barcelona themselves are questioning whether the days of tiki-taka are over. With the strikers they possess now, they could play any bloody system. ![]() You can't just buy players and hope they fit the system, you have to make a system that is suited to your players then mould them accordingly to the new style, this is what Bayern Munich did. I think the other thing about that system was that they kept possession for long periods which also allowed them to take a breather too. Klopp has employed a similar style but it's lead to injury crises and his teams have often struggled to balance the league and the cups. |
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#5947 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,681
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Looks like the Pato deal could be going ahead.
We will never learn. |
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#5948 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 58
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Pato is going to be on £32k a week, I believe it is much cheaper in the long run than to keep Falcao on 100k+. Bamford really should have been tried before Chelsea went for Pato though.
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#5949 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Sound Expert
Posts: 13,881
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pato!
What a load of utter garbage. Just when we are offloading the busted flush that is Falcao, we go and get another has-been. We should have held on to Luis, KDB, Schurrle, Lukaku! |
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#5950 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,434
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Quote:
pato!
What a load of utter garbage. Just when we are offloading the busted flush that is Falcao, we go and get another has-been. We should have held on to Luis, KDB, Schurrle, Lukaku! |
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] our problem was not anything to do with Hazard, Mata and Oscar. it was in front and behind them that was the problem!