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Chelsea Supporters Thread (Part 5) |
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#6226 |
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,733
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We should eb able to use our dire situation to blood young players in the PL, however if we started loosing because of this - the Press/ fans would be out for more blood.
There is a reason that Gus has not lost a game, that was his #1 priority, to stop us being a laughing stock / relegation contender. As for what the Press think, who cares? |
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#6227 |
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Sound Expert
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There's a reason he doesn't win many games too, he's far too conservative.
As for what the Press think, who cares? |
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#6228 |
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Join Date: May 2015
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Agreed. Playing him further forward worked against Arsenal, but that's about it.
I'd also say today showed, once again, that Matic and Mikel shouldn't be paired together, but I still expect to see it again and again until Guus leaves. I believe the issue here is that Hiddink is scared of dropping them. He likes Mikel(he has said that already) and Matic has been a key player for the 2 years he's been at Chelsea. Fabregas currently in the form he's been in post Xmas can't really be dropped either and is the only midfielder atm(along with Willian) that deserves to play on merit. Sometimes for the functionality of the team you need to forget about the players feelings and do whats best. If anybody has noticed, central attacking midfielders/strikers tend to do amazing against Chelsea when that trio(Mikel/Matic/Fab) plays in midfield. Barkley against Chelsea(twice) Sterling(vs Chelsea in league cup semi final last year), Ighalo, Mata. Furthermore Fab got his assist playing deeper. Not a coincidence. |
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#6229 |
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Richmond, Surrey.
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Does this game show you lot what was confirmed before. That Fabregas should not play at AM and is best from a deeper position for reasons that were already stated or you want to see Chelsea dominated for large periods and lack consistent chance creation for almost an hour before that happens again like what happened at Watford and United.
I stick by that. As good a player as he is (and I don't dispute that he's a very good player) the guy just can't defend. If we line up 4-2-3-1, playing Fabregas in the pivot alongside Matic, we are ostensibly calling him a defensive midfielder. To be more accurate, he should be a high energy box to box player with defensive duties. Personally, I think he's a bit of a luxury. Play him as a deep lying playmaker if you like, but when he doesn't deliver he becomes almost a liability. You will always need someone to cover for him against any half decent midfield opposition. If you think back, Barcelona never seemed to work out how to use Fabregas to get the most out of him. Of course, everyone will point out (correctly) that it all seemed to work at the beginning of last season. But I still think he looked a square peg in a round hole, more often than not we needed Willian or Oscar (sometimes both) tracking back to cover for his defensive deficiencies. I would use him from the start against the weakest opposition (but is there much of that around in the PL anymore ?) or bring him on later in the hope that he could open up a stubborn defence with one of his fantastic passes. |
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#6230 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,605
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Its just the "modern fan". Someone who sits and watches the game as if its some reality show and demands to be entertained.
Its not just the game they tune in for its the rubbish that goes along with it. The pointless chatter before and after, The lets give everyone a slap on the back for taking part etc etc etc. If Chelsea don't win it I don't care who wins it as long as its not Spur's Arsenal or Liverpool. Chelsea first second and third for me. All this "feel for the game" nonsense has just become a excuse to sit in front of the tv all day to watch the constant coverage Sky and BT force down fans necks You and a few others are completely out of tune with the vast majority of football fans round the country, young and old, who see this story for what it is. Shame you have such a very, very narrow view of what the game is really all about. |
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#6231 |
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 122
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Just confirmed on Sky that Zouma out for 6 months. Big loss. Gutted for the lad. Might strengthen JT's bargaining position.
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#6232 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,605
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I support Chelsea, am only interested in them winning. Why should I care what other teams do.
I was very happy when Gerrard slipped yet you said you were not. That suggests to me you are not a true Chelsea fan, more just have a passing interest in them winning. Your lack of criticism towards Liverpool is also rather interesting when we have played them so many times there should be some dislike. Strange you don't, very strange. I hope Leicester win especially if it means stopping Arsenal or Spurs. I will be happy for Claudio of course. You like football and then Chelsea second. That's fine but not for me. No matter how much you love your club, without the game there would be no club, so that's why i love the game as a whole more than i love my club. I was playing football and watching Cup finals before i became a true Chelsea fan. If Chelsea went bust tomorrow i would still love the game of football. By the sound of it, i doubt you'd still bother with it.
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#6233 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Sound Expert
Posts: 13,881
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Just confirmed on Sky that Zouma out for 6 months. Big loss. Gutted for the lad. Might strengthen JT's bargaining position.
i hope he gets back to his best - great prospect |
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#6234 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 69,134
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Terrible to hear about Zouma's injury and how long he will be out for.
My best wishes go out to him. |
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#6235 |
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,431
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What complete claptrap!
You and a few others are completely out of tune with the vast majority of football fans round the country, young and old, who see this story for what it is. Shame you have such a very, very narrow view of what the game is really all about. Will I be happy to see Leicester win the league since it wont be Chelsea then yes but I am not going to get all excited and go dancing down the streets if they do. Yep I have a very narrow view because I am a Chelsea fan first second and third and you are a football fan who happens to like Chelsea just as you more then likely like Arsenal,Man Utd Barnsley and F.C Grasshoppers. |
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#6236 |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West London
Posts: 5,657
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Can't you see the game is more important than any one club?
No matter how much you love your club, without the game there would be no club, so that's why i love the game as a whole more than i love my club. I was playing football and watching Cup finals before i became a true Chelsea fan. If Chelsea went bust tomorrow i would still love the game of football. By the sound of it, i doubt you'd still bother with it. ![]() If Chelsea went bust I would watch football but there would be no passion. I doubt you have ever had any real passion for Chelsea. Sure you like them but it's not in your blood Is it. That's pretty obvious. |
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#6237 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 760
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Can't you see the game is more important than any one club?
No matter how much you love your club, without the game there would be no club, so that's why i love the game as a whole more than i love my club. I was playing football and watching Cup finals before i became a true Chelsea fan. If Chelsea went bust tomorrow i would still love the game of football. By the sound of it, i doubt you'd still bother with it. ![]() The Internet is great, and forums like this are potentially very good for balanced discussion, but it also allows a few idiots to spend most of their time baiting, riling and goading, as if they've got nothing better to do with their time. Chelsea fans are fair and they're realistic. They're great people on the whole. They're nothing like the couple on here who claim to be fans.
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#6238 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 760
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You may be referring to one of my posts, but it doesn't matter I'll answer anyway. I did say that I never want to see Fabregas playing in defensive midfield again..ever.
I stick by that. As good a player as he is (and I don't dispute that he's a very good player) the guy just can't defend. If we line up 4-2-3-1, playing Fabregas in the pivot alongside Matic, we are ostensibly calling him a defensive midfielder. To be more accurate, he should be a high energy box to box player with defensive duties. Personally, I think he's a bit of a luxury. Play him as a deep lying playmaker if you like, but when he doesn't deliver he becomes almost a liability. You will always need someone to cover for him against any half decent midfield opposition. If you think back, Barcelona never seemed to work out how to use Fabregas to get the most out of him. Of course, everyone will point out (correctly) that it all seemed to work at the beginning of last season. But I still think he looked a square peg in a round hole, more often than not we needed Willian or Oscar (sometimes both) tracking back to cover for his defensive deficiencies. I would use him from the start against the weakest opposition (but is there much of that around in the PL anymore ?) or bring him on later in the hope that he could open up a stubborn defence with one of his fantastic passes. |
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#6239 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West London
Posts: 5,657
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Other peoples views seem very important to you.
Will I be happy to see Leicester win the league since it wont be Chelsea then yes but I am not going to get all excited and go dancing down the streets if they do. Yep I have a very narrow view because I am a Chelsea fan first second and third and you are a football fan who happens to like Chelsea just as you more then likely like Arsenal,Man Utd Barnsley and F.C Grasshoppers. |
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#6240 |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West London
Posts: 5,657
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I wouldn't waste your time trying to reason with some people on this thread. They spend most of their time here, and I doubt they're actual fans anyway. A couple of them wanted Mourhino to stay, so they would have been happy to have seen us in a relegation battle now, as opposed to battling to climb the table and compete in two big competitions.
The Internet is great, and forums like this are potentially very good for balanced discussion, but it also allows a few idiots to spend most of their time baiting, riling and goading, as if they've got nothing better to do with their time. Chelsea fans are fair and they're realistic. They're great people on the whole. They're nothing like the couple on here who claim to be fans. ![]() league. ![]()
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#6241 |
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Richmond, Surrey.
Posts: 13,811
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Yes and no R'mond lad. Mata outshone him by a long way on Sunday, and he's often absent at times from games, but don't forget his assists and goals last season. Also, you seem to be forgetting the player who played the sublime through ball for Costa's goal in the dying minutes. He can look almost disinterested at times, and is certainly not high energy, but he does get tackles in, although not in the aggressive way that Oscar does at times. The point is though that he can be having a quiet game, OK, a very quiet game, and then pop up with a defence splitting pass to change the course of the match. Hiddink is no idiot, and I doubt he'd be persevering with him if he was a total waste of space.
As you say, he's capable of making sublime, defence splitting passes. But I just think he needs to be doing that in practically every game to justify his other shortcomings. Sorry, I just never see him put in a ball winning tackle. In the first half on Sunday he might as well have been a cardboard cutout for all the effort he put in. It annoys me that he appears to get this free pass from defensive duties when even Costa was back defending at times. Fabregas is good, but not that good we can afford to just let him roam around looking for space while others are working their butts off. |
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#6242 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: A Sound Expert
Posts: 13,881
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They're nothing like the couple on here who claim to be fans.
![]() Real fans of chelsea on the forum, do not rise to this wum Use the "ignore" |
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#6243 |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West London
Posts: 5,657
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Quite incredible.
Real fans of chelsea on the forum, do not rise to this wum Use the "ignore" |
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#6244 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 58
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You may be referring to one of my posts, but it doesn't matter I'll answer anyway. I did say that I never want to see Fabregas playing in defensive midfield again..ever.
I stick by that. As good a player as he is (and I don't dispute that he's a very good player) the guy just can't defend. If we line up 4-2-3-1, playing Fabregas in the pivot alongside Matic, we are ostensibly calling him a defensive midfielder. To be more accurate, he should be a high energy box to box player with defensive duties. Personally, I think he's a bit of a luxury. Play him as a deep lying playmaker if you like, but when he doesn't deliver he becomes almost a liability. You will always need someone to cover for him against any half decent midfield opposition. If you think back, Barcelona never seemed to work out how to use Fabregas to get the most out of him. Of course, everyone will point out (correctly) that it all seemed to work at the beginning of last season. But I still think he looked a square peg in a round hole, more often than not we needed Willian or Oscar (sometimes both) tracking back to cover for his defensive deficiencies. I would use him from the start against the weakest opposition (but is there much of that around in the PL anymore ?) or bring him on later in the hope that he could open up a stubborn defence with one of his fantastic passes. Barcelona days when he was being played at false 9, advanced midfield or the wing most of the time? If anything that proves the point Fab is better deep as Barcelona were unable to get the best out of him in the advanced roles.Chelsea can do with an actual box to box midfielder(Fabregas is a hybrid of a box to box and deep lying playmaker) but Fabregas at AM just doesn't work. The system requires the AM to float from wing to wing(which from his barca days he's clearly not comfortable with wide positions). The system requires him to mark deep lying playmakers(he's not comfortable enough in that sense) and the system requires him to track back if he is in a wing position(again he's not comfortable with). Realistically the option should be a 4-3-2-1(like Ancelotti's in 09/10) rather than a 4-2-3-1 to utilise Fabregas' best strengths but he has to play in the holding position in a 4-2-3-1. Unless you want Mikel and Matic which is clearly a worse pairing. Like against Arsenal in the community shield Fabregas played at AM for 15mins and Chelsea was so shockingly bad Mourinho moved him deep and put Ramires at RW. How many more examples do you want? Fab deep works because he has the capability of making passes from deep on the counter for Costa(see Swansea 5-0 game) or he has the capability of being that 5th man in the Chelsea 4 man attack that affects any marking system a team has in place tracking the extra runner(again same Swansea 5-0 game) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF5zjbCnqME |
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#6245 |
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Richmond, Surrey.
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Box to box players can play in a 4-2-3-1. Modric, Khedira have played that role for Real. Schweinsteigger used to play that role for Bayern, Gundogan played that role for Dortmund.
Barcelona days when he was being played at false 9, advanced midfield or the wing most of the time? If anything that proves the point Fab is better deep as Barcelona were unable to get the best out of him in the advanced roles.Chelsea can do with an actual box to box midfielder(Fabregas is a hybrid of a box to box and deep lying playmaker) but Fabregas at AM just doesn't work. The system requires the AM to float from wing to wing(which from his barca days he's clearly not comfortable with wide positions). The system requires him to mark deep lying playmakers(he's not comfortable enough in that sense) and the system requires him to track back if he is in a wing position(again he's not comfortable with). Realistically the option should be a 4-3-2-1(like Ancelotti's in 09/10) rather than a 4-2-3-1 to utilise Fabregas' best strengths but he has to play in the holding position in a 4-2-3-1. Unless you want Mikel and Matic which is clearly a worse pairing. Like against Arsenal in the community shield Fabregas played at AM for 15mins and Chelsea was so shockingly bad Mourinho moved him deep and put Ramires at RW. How many more examples do you want? Fab deep works because he has the capability of making passes from deep on the counter for Costa(see Swansea 5-0 game) or he has the capability of being that 5th man in the Chelsea 4 man attack that affects any marking system a team has in place tracking the extra runner(again same Swansea 5-0 game) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF5zjbCnqME But I wouldn't even call Fabregas a hybrid box to box player, and I can't see that you can play him in any kind of holding role. I don't want to see Mikel and Matic any more than you do, but I fear Fabregas with Mikel or Matic in that pivot leaves us looking even weaker. Yes, I know it worked for a few months, but goodnesss knows why. We always looked vulnerable against any decent midfield opposition. Perhaps it took until the second half of last season for opposing managers to suss us out ? I always think it must be fairly easy to nulllify Fabregas. Look how easy it was for us to do a job on Pirlo, one of the best exponents of the deep lying playmaker's game that I've ever seen. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the very idea of a deep lying playmaker seems out of touch with the modern game. That doesn't mean you don't have players who can spray the ball around from deep positions, but I think the modern game demands that they can do so much more as well. |
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#6246 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,605
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Other peoples views seem very important to you.
Will I be happy to see Leicester win the league since it wont be Chelsea then yes but I am not going to get all excited and go dancing down the streets if they do. Yep I have a very narrow view because I am a Chelsea fan first second and third and you are a football fan who happens to like Chelsea just as you more then likely like Arsenal,Man Utd Barnsley and F.C Grasshoppers. Does it make you feel better playing this childish 'I'm a bigger Chelsea fan than you are' game? I could care less if you are! All i know is how much i love my club and that's enough for me! I was there when we were really shite and almost into the old 3rd division and with fans deserting the club at an alarming rate. and those that were left were looked down on as a bunch of racist scum. However, that does not and has never stopped me enjoying other teams that play good football and that includes Arsenal and Spurs. I'm not a Brazilian, but there's no greater sight in football than watching a great Brazilian team at their best! Shame that you miss out/ do not appreciate much about what is so great about the worlds greatest sport.
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#6247 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 58
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I don't think we're miles apart in our thinking, as far as I can see. Yes, the box to box players you mention would work alongside Matic (if he returns to form) in a 4-2-3-1.
But I wouldn't even call Fabregas a hybrid box to box player, and I can't see that you can play him in any kind of holding role. I don't want to see Mikel and Matic any more than you do, but I fear Fabregas with Mikel or Matic in that pivot leaves us looking even weaker. Yes, I know it worked for a few months, but goodnesss knows why. We always looked vulnerable against any decent midfield opposition. Perhaps it took until the second half of last season for opposing managers to suss us out ? I always think it must be fairly easy to nulllify Fabregas. Look how easy it was for us to do a job on Pirlo, one of the best exponents of the deep lying playmaker's game that I've ever seen. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the very idea of a deep lying playmaker seems out of touch with the modern game. That doesn't mean you don't have players who can spray the ball around from deep positions, but I think the modern game demands that they can do so much more as well. It's quite clear why it worked. The system had Matic playing out of his skin covering Fabregas' defensive issues, while the whole problem about Chelsea 13/14(the reason we bought Fabregas in the first place) was because Chelsea completely lacked a deep lying playmaker. This made instigating play from deep a huge issue. Luiz and Matic was a great pairing for the fact it was very defensively solid, but there was a clear issue against teams who sat back because Chelsea didn't have creativity from deep positions. Opposition managers didn't suss Chelsea out. Chelsea essentially went to a more defensive style of play(focusing on set pieces and defensive solidarity) in the second half of the season. Furthermore with Mourinho's lack of rotation the entire season Chelsea players clearly couldn't play at the high intensity they were playing for the first few months(other than Hazard really). Real Madrid had a similar issue in the 14/15 season which caused them to bottle their lead over Barcelona, who had rotated their squad efficiently in the first half of the season while Real used the same team. Finally. A deep lying playmaker is quite useful in the modern game. Fabregas is a special type as he likes to be the extra man to transition midfield to attack. Which is why I likened him to Modric, even if physically he is not as good(although just as good a passer). Fabregas' role is different to Pirlo who tended to stay deep most of the time and not get involved in the final third. Finally the issue with Matic and Mikel is that simply they are too slow to react to skillful players(Mata/Ighalo/Barkley) and occupy the same spaces which leaves a gap in midfield. They don't offer enough in an offensive sense to make up for it(which is why Fab is useful there) and it causes the likes of Hazard and Pedro to drop deeper to collect the ball to transition defence to attack which just holds up the play. |
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#6248 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,431
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Does it make you feel better playing this childish 'I'm a bigger Chelsea fan than you are' game? I could care less if you are! All i know is how much i love my club and that's enough for me!
I was there when we were really shite and almost into the old 3rd division and with fans deserting the club at an alarming rate. and those that were left were looked down on as a bunch of racist scum. However, that does not and has never stopped me enjoying other teams that play good football and that includes Arsenal and Spurs. I'm not a Brazilian, but there's no greater sight in football than watching a great Brazilian team at their best! Shame that you miss out/ do not appreciate much about what is so great about the worlds greatest sport. ![]() You are a different type of fan then me. You are a football fan who likes Chelsea. You follow football. You get your enjoyment from watching football I follow Chelsea. I get my enjoyment from following Chelsea. The game of course is a big part of that but there are many more things and more important things that have come from it, It has shaped my life, It has had an effect on most parts of my life. I have formed relationships based on it, I have seen Moscow,Munich etc etc etc because of Chelsea, I have carried coffins of people who I have have impacted on my life because of Chelsea. I have been to weddings because we share Chelsea, We see each other for a few hours on the weekend but we have a special bond Its more then the game. Its 10 years or so ago getting pissed off with a little kid in front of us keep asking his Dad silly questions and him recently crapping himself because for the first time he did not come with his Dad but his first proper girlfriend and him knowing we would take the mickey out of him. Its arranging return flights on the same day while on holiday just because they was putting Peter Osgoods ashes at the bridge when never saw him playing but we have to be there. Its watching your Dad cry in Munich not because we won the Champions League but because he was sharing the experience with people he grew up with and his children and people they grew up with. You say its a shame I miss out on what you enjoy about the game. Well I think you miss out on so much more. For you there is no greater sight then watching a goal, For me there is not greater sight then watching Arsenal fans self-explode because once again they have lost to Chelsea, There is no greater sight when Steven Gerrard scores a own goal when we are linked to buy him because of the feeling that gives not only you but people you are sharing the experience with Its not who is a bigger fan its not who "loves" something more or less. Its the fact we get different things from it. Personally I think I get more from the way I feel about Chelsea then you do about football but that's because my connection is different to yours. |
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#6249 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Richmond, Surrey.
Posts: 13,811
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He's a hybrid. He's not as physically able as the likes of Lampard/Modric however he does get up the pitch when needed and can play passes from deep. He's more similar to the role Cazorla plays for Arsenal(but Fab is obviously better as an overall player)
It's quite clear why it worked. The system had Matic playing out of his skin covering Fabregas' defensive issues, while the whole problem about Chelsea 13/14(the reason we bought Fabregas in the first place) was because Chelsea completely lacked a deep lying playmaker. This made instigating play from deep a huge issue. Luiz and Matic was a great pairing for the fact it was very defensively solid, but there was a clear issue against teams who sat back because Chelsea didn't have creativity from deep positions. Opposition managers didn't suss Chelsea out. Chelsea essentially went to a more defensive style of play(focusing on set pieces and defensive solidarity) in the second half of the season. Furthermore with Mourinho's lack of rotation the entire season Chelsea players clearly couldn't play at the high intensity they were playing for the first few months(other than Hazard really). Real Madrid had a similar issue in the 14/15 season which caused them to bottle their lead over Barcelona, who had rotated their squad efficiently in the first half of the season while Real used the same team. Finally. A deep lying playmaker is quite useful in the modern game. Fabregas is a special type as he likes to be the extra man to transition midfield to attack. Which is why I likened him to Modric, even if physically he is not as good(although just as good a passer). Fabregas' role is different to Pirlo who tended to stay deep most of the time and not get involved in the final third. Finally the issue with Matic and Mikel is that simply they are too slow to react to skillful players(Mata/Ighalo/Barkley) and occupy the same spaces which leaves a gap in midfield. They don't offer enough in an offensive sense to make up for it(which is why Fab is useful there) and it causes the likes of Hazard and Pedro to drop deeper to collect the ball to transition defence to attack which just holds up the play. As you said in a previous post, moving to a 4-3-2-1 and signing another box to box player to give us a more robust midfield might also work, you could then give Fabregas a more free role and wait for him to work his magic. The bottom line for me is that we're just not strong enough defensively to accommodate Fabregas in a kind of wandering free role. When we had Carvalho, Ashley Cole, Terry in his prime, and midfield players like Esssien, Ballack and Lampard, we could afford the luxury of a playmaker (though Ballack was a playmaker and broke up attacks) Now we just look fragile and often have to pull everyone behind the ball. |
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#6250 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 58
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Oh well, I think we'll just have to disagree on this one. But I do repect your reasoning and arguments. I agree, we could make Fabregas work with different players around him, but that begs the question of whether we could improve on Fabregas as a playmaker. Someone like Koke for example would give us (almost) the same level of creative and passing ability but with much more besides.
As you said in a previous post, moving to a 4-3-2-1 and signing another box to box player to give us a more robust midfield might also work, you could then give Fabregas a more free role and wait for him to work his magic. The bottom line for me is that we're just not strong enough defensively to accommodate Fabregas in a kind of wandering free role. When we had Carvalho, Ashley Cole, Terry in his prime, and midfield players like Esssien, Ballack and Lampard, we could afford the luxury of a playmaker (though Ballack was a playmaker and broke up attacks) Now we just look fragile and often have to pull everyone behind the ball. I agree that the defence is an issue, but the attack is just as much of an issue. The methods of attacking involves Ivanovic failing 80% of his crosses, pass to Hazard or hope Willian is on his game on set pieces. A distance shooter wouldn't go amiss from the box to box midfielder, only Matic and Oscar are capable of that. |
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If anything that proves the point Fab is better deep as Barcelona were unable to get the best out of him in the advanced roles.