Out of all the Classic Foes mentioned for a return, I don't hear too much about the Black Guardian and his opposite number in the White department.

I know both actors, Valentine Dyall and Cyril Luckham, are no longer with us. However, as shown in Mawdryn Undead, the Black Guardian can change his appearance at will so there's no problem with recasting the role.

On the positive side, the Guardian Trilogy in Season 20 of Classic Who proved they were no One-Season wonders from Season 16 and so I see no reason why they couldn't return in a new storyline.

On the flip side, could anyone really replace Valentine Dyall as the Black Guardian? He had the face and even better, the voice to make the role a particularly scary one, he certainly frightened me as a kid!

As with Season 20, would more emphasis be given more to him as a villain and what could you do with The White Guardian? I think both the main stories he's physically appeared in have been about right in terms of screen time. And judging from comments at the beginning of The Ribos Operation(when it was implied he could make The Doctor's life a nothing existence if he doesn't take on the task of finding the Key) suggests the character does have a dark side if needed for the greater good.

So what do you think? Could they work in the New Series? Or should we be just left with happy memories of what they were in Classic Who? I'd like to see them in the New Series but would be a bit wary of how different they would be.

With the right storyline most characters could come back. Would you bring back Turlough too?

I guess the question is - as always! - what would you do with them? What sort of story would you tell?

It seems that most modern fiction, and Who is no exception, is more about the evil in men's hearts, rather than evil personified as an outside force. And order and chaos as aspects of physics, rather than philosophy.

And to be fair, the whole Black Guardian/Turlough thing did drag on forever without going anywhere.

Old guys with birds on their heads? No thanks. They were of their time and wouldn't work today.

But a genuinely scary malign cosmic force versus a benign cosmic force would be interesting.

The PC RSPB Brigade would be up in arms for starters! (Sorry, OT but if I see one more post on DS banging on about the so-called "PC Brigade" I swear I'm going to, well, ummm...be slightly fed up.)

I liked the idea of the Guardians but not sure where you would go with them. Dyall did a splendidly fiery death scene in that *classic*story I keep mentioning on this forum, but if there was a fresh take on them, yeah, could be interesting.

Now the Mara....Oh yes!

I'd rather have Peri......


I never felt it dragged on, it was only over six weeks, but I do think the conclusion wasn't ideal and ended a bit too easy.


Though I agree about the dodgy hats, there is no reason why they couldn't come back, like any other classic villain. As has been said, it's what you do with them that counts. Looking at the Zygons in the 50th anniversary, not a great return and they were overshadowed. Wouldn't want that for the Guardians, well any other returning adversary come to that.


But was it a death scene though? The White Guardian did say that while he existed the Black Guardian existed also.

Agree about the Mara though, without the puppet snake off course.....

I came to it a little late, picking up the Black Guardian boxset, so perhaps watching all three serials in close proximity affects my perspective on it, but what I remember is an endless series of scenes that go a little like this:

BG: Kill the Doctor.
Turlough: No! I can't! I don't want to!
BG: Obey me! If you don't, I will punish you in terrible ways.
Turlough: Oh, okay then.

and later:

BG: Why haven't you killed the Doctor yet?
Turlough: No! I can't! I don't want to!

...rinse and repeat.

Loved the bird-headed Black Guardian - and THAT voice! Pity about that ever-so-colourful psychedelic background - straight from Top of the Pops

Personally I'd like to see a return of The Celestial Toymaker instead. Or an updated version of 'The Meddling Monk' . But that's just me.

They've done something a bit like the Black Guardian with the Pantheon of Discord.

Absolutely right, of course. As dove-head solemnly says; "Until we are no longer needed" which struck me as pretty heavy when I was 13/14. Still think it is, actually.

Remember getting strange looks from those with whom I was watching Army of Ghosts when the Eternals were mentioned and I briefly tried to explain the reference. Sort of "shut up you geek, this is getting exciting" looks. Which is fair enough, really.

I know what you mean. I get the same thing with the Trial series, the courtroom scenes are very repetitive when watched in one go and just how many zoom in's did we need of The Doctor at a cliffhanger in that Series?!

Off course, these stories weren't written or designed to be viewed in one hit at the time so they obviously thought they could get away with the repetitive stuff a lot more!



Agree with all of this, that Top Of the Pops background was a bit annoying but not as bad as the positive/negative stuff from The Armageddon Factor.....

As for those two adversaries, those are the two I'd like more than anything else to return. A Modern take on the Celestrial Toyroom with all the new effects would make quite interesting viewing.

Just no.

Dangnabit, y'all have piqued my interest. I must look into picking up this Black Guardian Trilogy next month as my next Doctor Who purchase. I have been concentrating on Tom Baker, but I'll swerve off the road a little bit in order to hit this rabbit.

Better to watch the key to time series first before the peter davison trilogy. Its interesting in the ribos operation the conversation between the white guardian and the 4th doctor which hints that the guardians are far more powerful than the time lords. There was also a hint that the black guardian would make a 3rd appearance. As long as the right actors are cast then there is no reason why they cannot make a successful return.

Hello Daveyboy gosh it is funny but I was thinking about this very topic a few weeks ago I think considering that the TimeLords were supposedly destroyed in the TimeWar you would have expected the Black and White Guardians to make an appearance as the whole of the universe was at stake at the time. So where did they go?

I would like to see them again but what kind of story would be appropriate I'm not sure. They seem to belong to a different age. The imagery looks semi-religious with the black and white and I wonder if they would resonate these days as well as then. Then again we had a mother superior last year so what do I know !

It was said the Eternals (who were also more powerful than the Time Lords) fled the Universe to get away from the Time War.

It's not too surprising if the Guardians decided to keep out of it as well.


As to a reappearance I've always though that the Trickster, his Brigade and the whole Pantheon of Discord are related to the Black Guardian in some way.

No, thank you! Both the Black Gaurdian and the White one were quite boring, so I definately DON'T want them back any time soon.

I hated the idea that Turlough should be allowed to 'kill' the Doctor and get away with it. Thank goodness he didn't succeed in carrying out The Black Gaurdian's deed.

Also, I didn't think it neccesary to have the Gaurdians in Doctor Who. I thought they interfered too much with things.

So NO, NO, NO!! Leave the Gaurdians alone! We don't need them back. They were boring.

Yeah, I have that and I love it. It was one of my first Tom Baker purchases. But, then, I remembered watching it as a teenager on PBS and loving it to death, so it was a priority when I started collecting.

It's an interesting point about the Time War. Who's to say it wasn't The Black Guardian behind the whole thing, manipulating events for his own pleasure, which sort of what he was trying to in The Armageddon Factor. Where that would leave The White Guardian I'm not so sure.


Firstly, there was no way Turlough would have killed The Doctor(unless Davison was leaving at this point, would have made a useful regeneration device) or you wouldn't have had a show, but it was fun watching him try it.

I thought the Guardians were far from boring. The Black Guardian as I said scared the hell of me as a kid and Valentine Dyall put in one hell of a performance. As for the interfering thing, you could say that about The Master, The Meddling Monk and The Rani, amongst others, so it's not exactly an exclusive quality the Guardians have in this regard!

Any writer with the slightest bit of talent can write a story using any former Who villian, companion etc...

Its like the old chestnut "the character had nowhere to go". Its a cop out.

By the way, are there any other stories starring the Guardians besides The Key of Time and The Black Guardian Trilogy?

I wasn't asking as a rhetorical device - I wasn't saying that there's nothing you can do with them. I really was canvassing ideas.

We're not Who writers. What would we like those talented writers to do with the characters?

No, there isn't, that was about it.

Which reminds me to say that if they do come back it would be nice to see them in one solitary(possible two-parter) adventure rather than in the background over one whole Series or in a Trilogy. Just one story would do.

I feel something like the Black and White Guardians work best when played over multiple stories, so maybe something like a arc over the course of a series would be nice, not revealing them until near the end.

And instead of going for a good vs. evil plan like they did before, I think an order vs. chaos story could work better. I really liked how that was played in that "Ten Doctor" fan comic a few years back.

[quote=Theophile;73105373]Dangnabit, y'all have piqued my interest. I must look into picking up this Black Guardian Trilogy next month as my next Doctor Who purchase. I have been concentcent ratingsmparom Baker, but I'll swerve off the road a little bit in order to hit this rabbit

The dvd boxset is well worth getting, lots of extras and one of my favourite features on a dvd-optional cgi. it works well in terminus where the cgi makes it more clear what is going on compared to the poor original effects. The wide screen version of enlightenment is not as good unfortunately. Too much is cut out, the original version is better.