Time travel as part of the plot can work as a wonderful device as seen in blink. Occasional episodes make it special, but overuse makes it mundane and can leave an entire period feeling unsatisfying and messy, which, unfortunately is how I feel about 11's time, despite the fact that there are some amazing individual episodes within that time.

Timey wimey, as used in 11's time watered down all drama and made stories feel smaller and less important in my view. Someone dies? who cares, they'll be back in a minute, seeing the doctors final and ultimate grave? impressive until this was muddied and made unclear in the very next episode. Tardis blows up because of yet to be revealed events of the future? intruiging mystery until you wait for years and then it is brushed off with a passing comment about a section of the silence, meaning after all the waiting you still don't know exactly who, or more importantly how.

RTD's time wasn't perfect sure, but when something happened, it happened. When something started, it was finished, explained in detail, and usually shown rather than told as well. It all just felt so much more satisfying back then.


We all know Moffat is a great single story writer, and I think if he gave up on timey wimey, and didn't force himself to tie himself in knots, and just used a bit of cause and effect for a change, with a mystery/problem that is solved in a linear manner for his arcs, then he could indeed be a great arc writer also

Good point agree with a lot of what you say .

Agree with this. When I think of 11's era I think messy, confusing, manic. The over-use of timey wimey just became a joke, really. Lazy writing from Moffat who can do a lot better. Father's Day is the perfect example of how time travel should be done - it was concise, heartbreaking and best of all it showed that there are consequences for messing around with time. Rose learned that the hard way.

Nicely put Doctor blue box

Thanks guys, a bit of validation is always nice

BIB: I take issue with that. Your memory is being selective:

Some things did get undone, characters brought back in RTD's era too,

Rose is gone, forever trapped in a parallel universe!
Oh! No she isn't! She's back!
Oh wait... she's gone again..
Hang on a mo',.. she's back again in Turn Left!
No she isn't, because Turn Left and all its consequences never happened.
Martha's year of traipsing around the globe?
Oh yes. That was rewound and never happened either.

I like both RTD and SM eras. All I'm saying is both have undermined the drama of certain events by using time travel as the ultimate undo reset button.

The rose example is not the same thing because their was no involvement of timey wimey in that example. Something concrete happened - her getting trapped in a parallel universe, then later events happened which broke down the walls of universes temporarily allowing her to return, so no timey wimey going back stuff there, just a progressing story.

With the Martha example yes, time was reversed, but it wasn't as though it was a main part of the plot or in any way anything to do with how the master was stopped, it was just a neat add on at the end to wrap things up nicely rather than saying the whole world was traumatised.

Plus, even if it didn't happen to the rest of the world, everyone at the eye of the storm remembers.

She still went through that whole year of suffering, being hunted down by Griffin and spreading the story.

If she had forgotten, that would have been annoying.

You said of the RTD era that "when something happened, it happened". I gave examples where that's clearly not the case.

It's true in both eras.

And the point about people at the centre of events still remembering, where is that not true in the SM era?

(Actually, Donna doesn't remember (RTD era) and Clara doesn't fully remember (SM era), the Doctor doesn't remember (when he meets his future selves - all eras). The point is, it's a common plot device. Not special to SM. )

It's true in both eras.

As I said before...

Selective.
Memory.

You make a distinction between the two eras where none exists - if you look at the evidence without bias.

Firstly, I didn't make the comment about people remembering, that was someone after me.

secondly, you gave examples why I was having 'selective memory' and I explained fully and in detail why I disagreed.

As I already said rose coming back had not one single element of timey wimey, it was just a linear situation change, and with the martha example, the whole world not remembering was nothing to do with the main plot and had no bearing on how the situation with the master was resolved, it was just an end consequence after the main story was done to wrap it up neatly.


Anyway, we can pointlessly argue the in's and outs of little details for age's I'm sure, but the main point of my post which you took issue with is that I personally am tired of timey wimey and feel that in my opinion over exposure to it has zapped the drama for me, so i'd like to see something different.

You obviously disagree, and your statement of such is of course is the whole point of these forums, so fair enough

Fair enough.

I like a reasoned and reasonable debate, which this has been.

It was an alternate timeline in another plane of reality, and featured a ship that had been navigating between realities - I don't think you can really argue that it's not timey-wimey.

Time travel is one thing - 'timey-wimey' is a handwave that says 'yes, what we're saying isn't scientific at all and doesn't bear any resemblance to anything common-sensical, just go with it'. And that can really apply to so many things.

I think the point people are trying to make if you have an objection to time travel particularly, that's one thing - but using time travel in a silly and incomprehensible way is no worse than using other sci-fi ideas in silly and incomprehensible ways. The character trajectories are fairly similar.

Paralell universes are nothing to do with 'timey wimey', a thing would have to involve time travel to be under that particular branch.

As for the rest of your post, I agree that there are many plot devices which are a bit cheap and feel and can feel a bit of a let down at times, but 'timey wimey' in the last three years has by and large felt like the biggest offender to me and obviously others on the thread arguing the same case.

Some like it, of course I'm not going to convince them any different and wouldn't try to, just stating that in my case, I personally feel we've been overexposed to it, and it has taken a lot of drama out of the show in my opinion.

Don't mind the use of time as a story element. But I am a big fan of narrativey warrativey and when something is said one sentence to explain away something that happened earlier and you can spot no clue to this whatsoever, no literal or implied foreshadowing that latterly reveals it was all part of a worked out idea, it is simply a case of I painted myself into a corner and can't logically write my way out of it, so I will just pull explanation x out of my hole. RTD did it, SM does it. It isn't inevitable, it is merely a sign that writing for a show and being in charge of its overall direction is a hard job that almost nobody is capable of doing without cutting corners. Writers should be writing, and script editors should be asking questions about plot holes and lack of clarity. If the show runner is also the head writer nobody is going to question them, it istheir job on the line if they do. George Lucas syndrome (not being able to to effectively perform quality control on your own ideas) is almost inevitable.

Looking back the lack of consequences was more important . 11 "died" but then he erased his own exsistence. What was all that about ?. Plus we had a husband spending more time with his in laws then his wife. Amy and Rory as parents they forgot their only daughter was in prison for something she didn't' do. Yes mourn the children you couldn't have. But fight for the one you already have. Try and rebuild a relationship with her. S7 missed opportunities to deal with the fall out from S 6. Hope S8 is easier to follow and enjoy.

Ah, yes, forgot about lack of consequences. sometimes via build up to something seemingly meaningful, then doing the equivalent of cutting to 'six months later' with the character conflicts with what is happening at one point never referenced again. Too many resets/rewinds of time to get out of the story problems that have no logic whatsoever, such as time being frozen so all of history happens at once. Timey wimey is only the half of it.

If you think once is too many, then that is perfectly valid. Because that is literally the only time that has happened. And the example you use is entirely the opposite - it is the timey-wimey that caused all of history happening at the same time. The resolution is to not have any timey-wimey.

I think this whole 'timey-wimey'-ness might need to stop for the simple fact that people clearly aren't understanding the simple conceits of it. Maybe people are overcomplicating things for themselves, but things like the above example seem to happen a lot. For the life of me, I can't understand why there's all this confusion about it, but it does seem that on here, at least, there is a lot of it. And, sadly, it continues after explanations.