With Spain now unexpectedly crashing out at the first hurdle, just wondered whether people think their fall from grace is as dramatic and unexpected as France's failure at the same stage twelve years ago.

For me, bearing in mind I was nine at the time of the 2002 tournament and therefore my memories of it aren't as strong as a lot of yours will be, I'd probably say that France just edge it. At least in Spain's defence this time they've fallen against a Dutch team with attacking riches in abudance and a very well-drilled Chile side who are capable of beating anyone, whereas in France's case they lost to Senegal and an average Uruguay outfit, before losing to Denmark who, whilst talented, weren't on the level of the French. Zidane's injury harmed them a bit, but not to the extent that it excused what followed.

Your thoughts...

France for the reasons you say, however the similarities are both sticking with players well past their best

Even though they've faced better opposition, Spain as they had slightly further to fall what with coming off the unprecedented hat-trick and they've not even had it go to the end of the group stage which is where France (and Italy last time) had at least faint hope left.

I am embarrassed to say that I struggle to remember '02 well.

Did France go out after two games though? I don't remember seeing that before in my lifetime.

I think France stayed alive until the third game, although it was out of their hands from that point and even if they had beaten Denmark, it would've been irrelevant as Senegal's draw with Uruguay was enough to take them through regardless of what the French did.

I'm going to say Spain. I don't think I ever rated France as highly as I did the Spanish team.

France had a decent team, but they weren't the dominant force Spain has been over the last few tournaments.

At least France could write it off to Zidane's absence whereas Spain have no excuse really. Plus, losing 5:1 to any team is quite disgraceful.

I'd say Spain's fall was greater. This is partly due to being triple tournament winners. But also because of the manner of their last victory. France imo were a bit lucky in the Euro 2000 final with an equaliser 8 seconds from time & the fact Italy had outplayed them until ET. Spain on the other hand gave the same nation a real hiding.

The warning signs have been there for a while mind, with Brazil giving Spain a footballing lesson in the Confederations Cup last year.

What about Italy four years ago?

They were also defending champions, and didn't get past the group stage either!

Not good records to have as defending champions recently!

I wonder this years winners will fare in Russia!

Italy weren't as dominant as the other two going in to the tournament, and have a miniscule edge in that they didn't lose until the last game.

Spain seem worst, out of the tournament after two games.

The teamsheet for Spain is also incredible, filled with some of the worlds best players.

In the past defending champions might have had the excuse of not having to qualify so that they wouldn't have had any competitive internationals in the previous two years but that doesn't apply now.

Not a good omen for the the Spanish King who starts work today.

Just one tournament too many for this group of players. Xabi Alonso sums it up perfectly...

"We didn't know how to maintain our hunger or that conviction needed to win a tournament," said the 32-year-old Real Madrid midfielder.

"The joy and success we've experienced is over."

"Maybe it would be best to think about making changes."

Spain manager Vicente Del Bosque says there will be consequences of his side's exit and hinted his six-year reign as national boss may be coming to an end.

"It's true that when such things happen during a World Cup or a tournament such things have consequences," he said.

"We have time to analyse that and it is not the right time now. There will be time to think and reflect what we are going to do.

"I think this team is good but we have to take a decision about what is good for Spanish football and that applies to myself as well."

He said his side were "sluggish and not brave enough" in the 2-0 loss to Chile, while captain Iker Casillas admitted that "the commitment wasn't there".

Didn't France go out of the group in 02 having failed to score a goal?

Yes, 0-1, 0-0 and 0-2

They haven't had the best of times in the world cup since 98 have they. But their game against Honduras the other day was very encouraging for them.

Spain is worse because they still have a lot of talented players who could walk into any team in the world.

Whats more incredible about the French team in 2002, was they had the leading goal scorers from England (Henry), Italy (Trezzeguet) and France (Cisse). Yet they failed to a single goal in the tournament.

I think Spains fall was worse, only because they had much further to fall.

Well, they became European Champions in 2000. They were also runners up in the World Cup 2006. So it's not like they were completely terrible. I have said this before, but the secret to France's success and failures was Zidane. The cups he appeared in, he carried them to wins or at least to the final.

There was no harmony in the team either. Which is why they didnt do well. The camp wasnt happy with players squabbling with one another. This wouldnt have helped in a tournament. This French team looks like a united unit, and it showed in their first game, they played very well, passing the ball around and generally looked like a team that will do well.

Infighting has also been Hollands problem in the past. Which explains their lack of trophies - for the quality of players they have had its almost criminal they havent won the world cup yet.

That's true, but just like Cruyff could carry a divided Holland squad to the World Cup finals, so could Zidane in 2006. Look what happened when practically the same French team (but minus Zidane) arrived in 2010.

In answer the the question Spain fall is a lot more dramatic. First nobody saw this coming at all. People might have questioned if they could win the world cup again but not to get out the group stage was unthinkable 2 weeks ago.

Spain have been in good form of late not lost this year no major injury issues that would highlight this change, manager still the same etc.

The second reason is the manner of the games. In truth France did not play that badly at least in the first two games but lacked any cutting edge up front you just could not see where the goals where coming from but at least stable at the back.

Spain where hammered by Holland and team only 4 years ago they snuffed out to win the world cup. On paper Spanish team was actually a better one than 4 years ago adding experience to mix 4 years on. They did not just get beat but looked down and adrift from the world. It was as if they have forgotten to play football in the second half they where luckly it was only 5 could have been 7 or 8.

The game against Chile was a better performance but they could have played for days but not got on the score sheet. They did not learn from the first game stuck with a goal keeper prone to errors and a striker that did not fit into the system. Even after the first game they where expected to beat chile even a drawn would have taken it to the last game.

To go out as the previous world and european champs in only the second game of the world for me just edges them ahead of France. I accept Holland are a better side than anything France had to face but it is really the manner in which Spain have just given up is the shock.

Spain's demise is far worse, they looked afraid every time they were on the pitch. At least France showed some fight on the training ground.

France in 2002 was a shambles. They just picked the same players because they were all like a little clique around Zidane.

Djorkaeff and Dugarry got in because they were mates with Zidane. Leboeuf (who was 34 and past it) was first-choice alongside a knackered Desailly and Lizarazu. Petit was still picked, even though he was at least 2 years past his best.

They had loads of better players who were left on the bench or not picked for the squad at all.

Yet, if Zidane was there, they would have played completely differently. He could transform France from nothing into serious contenders and suddenly the whole squad would play as a team. Compare France of 2006 with whatever it was France did in 2010.