Originally Posted by Dixon:
“I don't believe the players don't care or didn't try hard enough.”
“I don't believe the players don't care or didn't try hard enough.”
Agreed. Not enough pride or passion though.
England fans and the media are partly to blame for our failures!
2 of 2
No it's the manager.
The FA keep putting in place Premiership type managers, people who would do a good job over a season or three. Moulding a squad into winners over 50 games or so...
When what is needed is man who treats every game like a cup final.
The successful England manager will probably not be that successful as a league manager. Basically we need a King on a Horse, rather than Prime Minister of Norway.
The FA keep putting in place Premiership type managers, people who would do a good job over a season or three. Moulding a squad into winners over 50 games or so...
When what is needed is man who treats every game like a cup final.
The successful England manager will probably not be that successful as a league manager. Basically we need a King on a Horse, rather than Prime Minister of Norway.
this pride and passion argument really gets on my nerves. those don't win football matches, believe it or not.
Originally Posted by jediknight2k1:
“Basketball is played world wide and has international championships, baseball also has it's own world championship.
As football is England's national sport and all the team does is continually fails at then obviously something is wrong.
It's obvious that the system American's sports have to developing young players is years ahead of what the English clubs have in this country.
You might want to check but even the majority of Major League Soccer players in their teams are American and it looks like they might qualify past the group stage(unlike England).”
“Basketball is played world wide and has international championships, baseball also has it's own world championship.
As football is England's national sport and all the team does is continually fails at then obviously something is wrong.
It's obvious that the system American's sports have to developing young players is years ahead of what the English clubs have in this country.
You might want to check but even the majority of Major League Soccer players in their teams are American and it looks like they might qualify past the group stage(unlike England).”
If you really think you can compare the American sports to football, then you're off your rocker.
Originally Posted by Ænima:
“It wasn't the only reason I gave.”
“It wasn't the only reason I gave.”
I have no issue with the other reasons. Passion, pride and absolutely anything referencing a player's wage are a complete irrelevance though.
Originally Posted by celesti:
“I have no issue with the other reasons. Passion, pride and absolutely anything referencing a player's wage are a complete irrelevance though.”
“I have no issue with the other reasons. Passion, pride and absolutely anything referencing a player's wage are a complete irrelevance though.”
I'm sure Luis Suarez is earning a pretty penny but that didn't seem to temper his performance in any way. Why do people think that wealth is unique to English players?
How many of the current England squad can you name who in their club squad are propped up by foreign players who surround them and enable them to perform well?
Originally Posted by celesti:
“I wish people wouldn't do this. Effort, pride and passion (add any other meaningless synonym) isn't the problem, neither are they distracted by money. Spain have come off the back of an unprecedented hat-trick of tournaments, I doubt they're nervously consolidating their debts into one manageable payment plan.”
“I wish people wouldn't do this. Effort, pride and passion (add any other meaningless synonym) isn't the problem, neither are they distracted by money. Spain have come off the back of an unprecedented hat-trick of tournaments, I doubt they're nervously consolidating their debts into one manageable payment plan.”
Yes.
Both Joe Hart and Gary Cahill were on the verge of tears after being interviewed just after England had been knocked out of the World Cup.
They do care.
Originally Posted by mattlamb:
“Yes.
Both Joe Hart and Gary Cahill were on the verge of tears after being interviewed just after England had been knocked out of the World Cup.
They do care.”
“Yes.
Both Joe Hart and Gary Cahill were on the verge of tears after being interviewed just after England had been knocked out of the World Cup.
They do care.”
I saw Gary Cahill's interview, and it really touched me, actually. When he said that it had been the best day of his life being picked, and it now felt like the worst thing ever
On another point that people have raised: the likes of Suarez etc, who earn big bucks in the PL but play passionately for their country - I wonder if this links in with another widespread view, that English players seem reluctant to move to other countries rather than earning a lot by sitting on the bench here? I wonder if a player whose day job is not in his own country relishes the chance to be part of his own national side? Beckham seems to be even more passionate about England since he left.
I feel sorry for Roy. Its not his fault. The FA should be accountable for their lack of action in football. Where are all these bright young things that we are constantly being told are coming up?
Originally Posted by Alrightmate:
“How many of the current England squad can you name who in their club squad are propped up by foreign players who surround them and enable them to perform well?”
“How many of the current England squad can you name who in their club squad are propped up by foreign players who surround them and enable them to perform well?”
It doesn't't make sense to say that the English players are being 'propped up' by the foreigners.
If anything, they'd be shown up by the foreign players if they didn't have ability.
Lampard put in many high quality performances in the CL over a period of 10 years. His contribution was as good/important as any of the foreign players we've had, so that showed he had top class ability.
But, like Gerrard, Rooney and co, something happens to them when they pull on an England shirt at the finals of the major tournaments.
I do firmly believe we have talent in this country and some day someone will find a way to bring it out and put it all together.
Originally Posted by pixel_pixel:
“I feel sorry for Roy. Its not his fault. The FA should be accountable for their lack of action in football. Where are all these bright young things that we are constantly being told are coming up?”
“I feel sorry for Roy. Its not his fault. The FA should be accountable for their lack of action in football. Where are all these bright young things that we are constantly being told are coming up?”
I agree. Roy did the best with what he had but you can't polish a turd.
Originally Posted by myscimitar:
“I do, for year's apart from Beckham, no player has really given a toss about England, apart from getting the call up, so they can do adverts and get a new load of money.”
“I do, for year's apart from Beckham, no player has really given a toss about England, apart from getting the call up, so they can do adverts and get a new load of money.”
Beckham is/was the biggest money making marketing tool of them all!
You think he just does all his adverts and shows just for a bit of fun?
I agree the bloke is a nice guy who did his best but he wasn't afraid to look for the dosh...or the people around him weren't.
Anyway it takes more than running around looking hard and putting in tackles to win World Cups.
Originally Posted by celesti:
“I have no issue with the other reasons. Passion, pride and absolutely anything referencing a player's wage are a complete irrelevance though.”
“I have no issue with the other reasons. Passion, pride and absolutely anything referencing a player's wage are a complete irrelevance though.”
We'll have to agree to differ then
Originally Posted by Tal'shiar:
“I know its easy to dismiss it but I think to a point it does have merit. I know some people make out they are treating it like a normal job and thats not true, but the level of passion is going to be far lower and its not exactly anyones fault.
Let me compare it to something many people can also relate it too. Music. When people talk about a bands hayday it isn't when they are older and rich after the fame, its when they are young and hungry. When no one expects anything from you, you have a lot to prove. Its no surprise that time and time again you see people who struggle in a day to day life, those parts of the world pump out these amazing individuals. They are often given very few choices in life. If Ronaldo was a Brazilian superstar, what do you think he would be doing. Many times sports and music and the media in general are the only realistic way out, and that creates a bred of player.
Take some kid who dreams of being the next Messi or Pele, he puts in the hours day in day out for his entire life. He lives in some part of the world were options are low, low pay or a strong pull to gangs, football is their life line. Not only theirs, they know they can lift their entire family out of poverty if they can become one of those superstars.
Compare that to say Rooney, who is pretty rich at this point, he may still really want to win for England but the drive isnt as extreme. He isnt going hungry, his family are not in dire straights and he wasnt living in some crime ridden part of the world (OI no jokes please haha), his drive is simply his passion for football. He can still put a lot into it, but at that very peak of the game, he cannot compete.
USA whilst a great sporting nation in some areas, look at who gets them the medals. Which ethnic group pretty much owns the NBA, African Americans make a large portion of the baseball players also. The racial situation in America is very different from here and the old divides still exist. The ghetto seems like the stuff of nightmares, but it will also give rise to people who are really hungry for the top prize, they will live and die by that.”
“I know its easy to dismiss it but I think to a point it does have merit. I know some people make out they are treating it like a normal job and thats not true, but the level of passion is going to be far lower and its not exactly anyones fault.
Let me compare it to something many people can also relate it too. Music. When people talk about a bands hayday it isn't when they are older and rich after the fame, its when they are young and hungry. When no one expects anything from you, you have a lot to prove. Its no surprise that time and time again you see people who struggle in a day to day life, those parts of the world pump out these amazing individuals. They are often given very few choices in life. If Ronaldo was a Brazilian superstar, what do you think he would be doing. Many times sports and music and the media in general are the only realistic way out, and that creates a bred of player.
Take some kid who dreams of being the next Messi or Pele, he puts in the hours day in day out for his entire life. He lives in some part of the world were options are low, low pay or a strong pull to gangs, football is their life line. Not only theirs, they know they can lift their entire family out of poverty if they can become one of those superstars.
Compare that to say Rooney, who is pretty rich at this point, he may still really want to win for England but the drive isnt as extreme. He isnt going hungry, his family are not in dire straights and he wasnt living in some crime ridden part of the world (OI no jokes please haha), his drive is simply his passion for football. He can still put a lot into it, but at that very peak of the game, he cannot compete.
USA whilst a great sporting nation in some areas, look at who gets them the medals. Which ethnic group pretty much owns the NBA, African Americans make a large portion of the baseball players also. The racial situation in America is very different from here and the old divides still exist. The ghetto seems like the stuff of nightmares, but it will also give rise to people who are really hungry for the top prize, they will live and die by that.”
Good post, agreed. I'm not saying it's the only reason, or that it applies to every team, but I definitely think it's part of the reason you'll see the occasional big shock, with big teams getting beaten by teams like Chile or Costa Rica.
As with everything, I think it's a combination, to be a great team, you need skill obviously, but you also need to fight for it, and want it more than the other team. I've watched some matches at the world cup and it seems like some of the teams have just given up. It's like a boxing match, half the battle is in your own head, your state of mind .A world class player can seem very average if they have an off day because their heart isn't in it as much as their opponents.
I'm not saying England don't work hard, and I'm sure they want it, it's just I've seen teams in this world cup that want it so badly, they're bristling with passion from every pore. People don't all have to agree, that's what's so great about opinions
2 of 2
