I will repeat it again.

Shirley only becomes really unlikable when the Philth comes with ten yards.

We all know Shirley would have gone straight to the police over Heather, we all know she would tell Philth to piss right off after he ripped off Mick over the Vic, we all know she would not cave in over his threats.

But TPTB are only interested in keeping Philth as Top Dog - so all the other characters suffer.

This will go on until Philth is in his nineties.

No, we don't all know that. Those of us who watch EastEnders with our eyes and ears open know that Shirley was vile trash long before she was in Phil's orbit. Did Phil tell her to drown Mick, have multiple affairs behind Kevin's back, abandon Carly, Dean and a dying Jimbo, treat Heather like shit, rub her affair with Kevin in Denise's face on her wedding day and bully everyone who stands in her way? The Dark Lord of the Sith's powers are truly greater than we thought.

In your opinion.

My eyes and ears are open thanks.

I have watched since the beginning and remember when Philth was hard but fair - that all changed when Grant left.

BIB1 Because she's too screwed up to be a constant on screen presence. I don't enjoy watching a hateful old drunk roll around in the gutter feeling sorry for herself every week. The character never progesses. All she does is go in circles no matter what is thrown at her. Just like Max and Tanya. That's my comparison with the Brannings along with the fact they were also an unpleasant dynamic to have as the "stars" of the show.

BIB2 I don't think anyone should be a background character apart from the extras. Every character should have a purpose. I personally think Shirley worked better as a supporting character to others. She isn't likable enough or interesting enough to be a lead character. She deserves more than she got in 2013 but this constant pushing of her to the forefront is unwarranted. The actress may be good but the character isn't near good enough for all the attention.

It's my opinion that Shirley is vile trash, fair enough, but don't pretend she didn't cause a whole lot of misery long before Phil came into her messed up life. All I see is revisionist history here.

I don't, she is a deeply flawed character although I am at a loss as to why you believe your opinion is more important than anyone else's.

You have to be in some way decent in order to be flawed. Shirley is poison. What are her good points if I may ask?

I don't know why you're at a loss. If I believed my opinion was more important than yours I wouldn't have replied to you. It isn't my fault if your bias and hatred towards Phil Mitchell blinds you to events that actually took place on the show you've watched since the beginning. It seems to me you can't back up your points and have thrown your toys out because I won't agree that Phil is the reason Shirley is trash.

Most of the time Shirley enjoyed having Heather as a substitute child and reacted angrily whenever Heather tried to assert herself. She even tried to bully Darren into keeping away from his baby because he posed a threat to Heather's dependence on her. Shirley's abandonment of Heather when she was at her most vulnerable, as an inexperienced single mother with a young baby, when she had promised to always be there for them was despicable. That she did this because she viewed Phil's addiction as an opportunity is even worse.

No - I am posting elsewhere at the same time, I have much more than soap to interest me on here.

I do not hate Philth, he is a fictional character.

You are welcome to you opinion, but Philth destroys any character he is with - look at Sharon.

Shirley is a very flawed character but is far better away from him and always has been.

Deny it all you like.

We will have agree to disagree.

Got it. You can't be arsed to continue the discussion. I don't know why you bothered entering it in the first place if that's the case. I figured it was so when I replied to one of your posts point by point and you completely ignored it only to return with "I will repeat it again" like you couldn't give a damn about a view opposing to yours. And I'm the one who's supposed to think my opinion is more important than anyone else's. I'm glad we understand each other.

It is one in the bloody morning mate, but nice try.

Shirley is deeply flawed and always has been, but when she gets with Philth she becomes worse, much worse.

Do you deny that all characters are sacrificed to maintain king Philth's reputation?

Shirley is no angel but you hate her with a passion, and before you start on me and Philth it is his invincibility that bothers me the most not the fact he is an utter bastard.

I don't see what the time of day has to do with anything. No one is stopping you from replying at a later date. I do it myself often.

You say Shirley is flawed but again I ask you what are her good points? In order to be flawed you have to have some redeeming qualities. Shirley has none. She's not flawed. She's just bad to the bone.

When did I ever deny that characters are sacrificed for Phil? That's been happening for years. All I'm saying is that Shirley was already horrible before she got with Phil. She was away from him for most of this year yet she was still horrible to people. Have you already forgotten she blackmailed her beloved Mick into putting her name above The Vic?

If I hated Shirley with a passion I'd be shouting from the rooftops that I want her axed. All I've said is that I'd like to see less of her because I don't enjoy watching two bit lushes drown their sorrows in the gutter. But if I did hate Shirley "with a passion" I'd have plenty of reasons to.

Phil's invincibility has become so ridiculous that I can't take him seriously anymore. Phil's bionic body and Max's super penis are the biggest running jokes in the show.

I am so glad you have said that.

The reason I mentioned the time is that I am knackered.

Shirley is no angel, not at all, but despite being an unpleasant woman Linda gives her more than the sum of her parts. I cannot really explain it better than that.

I really enjoyed Shirley's friendship with Heather when they arrived - chalk and cheese if ever there was.

Yes was blinded by Philth, but deep down she really loved her.

I have seen some tenderness in Shirley, she really regrets her mistakes which is why she drinks, but as I say that is always ruined when she get's near Philth. She becomes even more selfish and flawed.

She should stay with her family, she was becoming a very nuanced characater before Philth destroyed her again.

I agree with you that it's down to Linda Henry that Shirley is still watchable. I'd go as far as to say the actress deserves a better character. I completely understand why people enjoy Linda Henry's performances but I don't think even Linda could make me sympathise with the character of Shirley.

I enjoyed Heather and Shirley when they were having fun but I didn't like the way Shirley manipulated her and dropped her when it suited her. I think the 2 actresses worked really well together when the writing was there for them. I have to admit that Heather was dead to Shirley once Phil came along. You have a strong point there.

I don't think Shirely changed at all with the introduction of her family if I'm being perfectly honest. When she blackmailed Mick I knew she was never going to change. Outing Johnny in public and screaming abuse at Linda is more of the same from Shirley and not something that endears me to the character. For those reasons I can't accept Phil is the cause of Shirley's destruction but I don't deny he adds to it when she's involved with him.

Thank you for not picking up on the ill derived line from my previous post about Max's super penis being one of the BIGGEST running jokes

Max should be so lucky!

I feel much the same way about Philth as you do about Shirley, played by a good actor whose character I just cannot ever sympathise with.

Time for some kip.

He certainly wasn't. He screwed his brother's wife and put all the blame on Sharon, he threatened Grant with a gun, nearly killing him when he shot out the dashboard of the car they were in and they ended up plunging into the Thames. He treated Peggy like shit. He was an abusive drunk when he was with Kathy. He hit Sharon, torched the car lot killing a man. The only time he was nice was when he wanted something.

She wasn't dead to her, but she did have to take a back seat. This is natural when someone gets a boyfriend. Their priorities change and the best friend is no longer number one.

A character doesn't have to be likable, or should I say nice, to be a lead character, but interesting, yes. The show is full of likable characters but they are not particularly interesting...Terry, Fats, Alfie, Peter,Abi, Roxy....all nice but as boring as hell. Shirley is far from nice, although she does have her moments, but she is one of the most interesting characters in the show.

I forget all his early crimes sometimes, as I have only watched the episodes once.

Yes he was a total shit but just not as big as shit as he is now, and at least then he was not totally invincible.

I just cannot see why people enjoy watching him anymore.

The word 'psychopath' is never used about Philth.

I wonder why.

The man is scum.

Yes, that is the problem. Phil at least used to get his comeuppance sometimes (not often), but not any more. He never pays for his dreadful behaviour.

That is my biggest problem with the character - everyone else eventually pays for their bad behaviour.

Philth never does.

Ever.

What about when Shirley demanded Heather choose between her and Andrew? She was with Phil at this time and if her priorities had changed then why was she still trying to control Heather's life? Heather was either a best mate she could pick up and drop whenever it suited her or a cherished friend whose interests she held close to her heart. Which was it? You can't have it both ways.

What about the time she promised Heather she'd be George's co-parent and they'd raise him together? Within weeks she'd abandoned both of them to go crawling back to Phil. Personally I don't believe Heather was completely together mentally and probably suffered from some type of mental disability but that's just my conjecture based on her actions as the writers never studied the character in depth. I don't think Heather was capable of taking care of herself. She often ended up homeless and almost ended up dead by gas poisoning. Shirley knew all this and took advantage when it suited her.

It's not about being nice. Den was probably my favourite character and he was far from nice. Pauline could be a right old witch at times but she was one of my all time favourites. Shirley is poison straight through. There was a time I would laugh at her barbed comments but they've become increasingly mean spirited and her attititude has become more aggressive. She's nothing short of a vodka swillng bully these days. She does not accept responsibility for anything unless it's to use it as an excuse to feel sorry for herself. That's neither interesting nor entertaining to me but I accept you have a different view and that's your prerogative.

Andrew at that time wasn't always controlling his temper and he attempted to threaten Shirley at R&R so I think in her own unorthodox way she was trying to get Hev to see what Andrew could be like and keep her safe. They never really explored Andrews temper properly but he was quite hot headed. I've noticed with Shirley that even when her heart is in the right place, she usually goes the wrong way about showing it and I find that interesting.

I agree that Phil does need some comeuppance in some way, I wouldn't mind him so much if others weren't sacrificed for him though and I do like comical Phil.

I prefer characters that aren't 'stereo-typically' nice. I would much rather watch a character like Shirley for an episode than say, Abi.

I'm glad it's been picked up on when others portray their opinion as fact and make out that theirs is the right one when you can only speak for yourself and not others.

It's because the writers are in love with him. I don't think it sends out a good message to young people watching the show that bullying and bad behaviour goes unpunished and is cool. No wonder you see so many hateful comments from certain fans on Twitter and Facebook. If they've grown up watching Phil Mitchell be a total c word to everyone who crossed his path then they probably think this is normal and commendable behaviour. Sadly I think that's the demographic EastEnders has been chasing after for quite a while now.