Does everyone still think Holland's win over Spain was a sensational display and "performance of the tournament"? For the third game in succession, they're struggling badly to break down a well organised defence.
Eloratings rank Germany's performance as the greatest in football history
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Originally Posted by Deep Purple:
“It was a sensational 2nd half, and unexpected, which is why they haven't been able to repeat it.”
“It was a sensational 2nd half, and unexpected, which is why they haven't been able to repeat it.”
It certainly was but I still say Germany's win last night tops it : they've twice handed out a trashing to big name teams in this tournament whereas NL are being lauded for a very good 45 minutes against a poor enough Spanish team with an off form goalkeeper.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“It certainly was but I still say Germany's win last night tops it : they've twice handed out a trashing to big name teams in this tournament whereas NL are being lauded for a very good 45 minutes against a poor enough Spanish team with an off form goalkeeper.”
“It certainly was but I still say Germany's win last night tops it : they've twice handed out a trashing to big name teams in this tournament whereas NL are being lauded for a very good 45 minutes against a poor enough Spanish team with an off form goalkeeper.”
Germany faced a hopeless 11 last night though.
Originally Posted by Deep Purple:
“Germany faced a hopeless 11 last night though.”
“Germany faced a hopeless 11 last night though.”
I'll stick my neck out and say that that Brazil team were better than the Spanish team that lost 5-1 to NL.
Have a look at tonight's stats, apart from that half chance for Robben near the end, NL didn't have a single shot on target for the entire 90 minutes.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“I'll stick my neck out and say that that Brazil team were better than the Spanish team that lost 5-1 to NL.
Have a look at tonight's stats, apart from that half chance for Robben near the end, NL didn't have a single shot on target for the entire 90 minutes.”
“I'll stick my neck out and say that that Brazil team were better than the Spanish team that lost 5-1 to NL.
Have a look at tonight's stats, apart from that half chance for Robben near the end, NL didn't have a single shot on target for the entire 90 minutes.”
Really?
So the Spain that has won 3 tournaments in a row and has a abundance of players who just played into the all Spanish CL and Europa league finals are worse than David Luiz, Fred etc?
Again you and I will just have to agree to disagree.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“I'll stick my neck out and say that that Brazil team were better than the Spanish team that lost 5-1 to NL.”
“I'll stick my neck out and say that that Brazil team were better than the Spanish team that lost 5-1 to NL.”
Can't agree with that whatsoever.
Originally Posted by Thomas007:
“Really?
So the Spain that has won 3 tournaments in a row and has a abundance of players who just played into the all Spanish CL and Europa league finals are worse than David Luiz, Fred etc?
Again you and I will just have to agree to disagree.”
“Really?
So the Spain that has won 3 tournaments in a row and has a abundance of players who just played into the all Spanish CL and Europa league finals are worse than David Luiz, Fred etc?
Again you and I will just have to agree to disagree.
”
It's not that shocking is it? Spain were eliminated after two games and two defeats.....Brazil on the other hand got through to this year's semi final (with a fair amount of luck of course. But I'd still say Germany's win over Brazil was better than NL's demolition of Spain as I reckon the Spanish were the weaker team.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“I'll stick my neck out and say that that Brazil team were better than the Spanish team that lost 5-1 to NL.
Have a look at tonight's stats, apart from that half chance for Robben near the end, NL didn't have a single shot on target for the entire 90 minutes.”
“I'll stick my neck out and say that that Brazil team were better than the Spanish team that lost 5-1 to NL.
Have a look at tonight's stats, apart from that half chance for Robben near the end, NL didn't have a single shot on target for the entire 90 minutes.”
Not a chance for me. Spain were in control of that game for the first 40 minutes or so until Silva fluffed a great opportunity to make it 2-0. After that, Spain sought to protect their lead and the Dutch began to have more possession, and they made full use of it as Spain collapsed at the back.
Spain were poor, but not nearly as bad as Brazil were last night.
Spain were at ease until Van Persies equaliser. The Dutch played a remarkable second half.
Brazil were shambolic from start to finish. If anyone is telling me Spain were worse than that against the Dutch I don't think they justify being taken seriously at all.
Brazil were shambolic from start to finish. If anyone is telling me Spain were worse than that against the Dutch I don't think they justify being taken seriously at all.
Originally Posted by alanrollins:
“Spain were at ease until Van Persies equaliser. The Dutch played a remarkable second half.
Brazil were shambolic from start to finish. If anyone is telling me Spain were worse than that against the Dutch I don't think they justify being taken seriously at all.”
“Spain were at ease until Van Persies equaliser. The Dutch played a remarkable second half.
Brazil were shambolic from start to finish. If anyone is telling me Spain were worse than that against the Dutch I don't think they justify being taken seriously at all.”
Brazil started the game strongly last night though and pressed Germany really hard for the opening 10 minutes. It was the goal that proved a shock to their system and made them very edgy and nervous.
The fact that the Dutch have been incapable of reproducing that 45 minutes since then is quite telling......they're heading for their second 120 minute 0-0 in a row here.
I must be watching a different World Cup altogether, let alone different matches.
You have to realise footballers are not robots. How Holland and Argentina have planned tactically to combat Messi and Robben respectively is not something that can be played out or explained through a review of ELO stats.
You have to realise footballers are not robots. How Holland and Argentina have planned tactically to combat Messi and Robben respectively is not something that can be played out or explained through a review of ELO stats.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“Brazil started the game strongly last night though and pressed Germany really hard for the opening 10 minutes.”
“Brazil started the game strongly last night though and pressed Germany really hard for the opening 10 minutes.”
That's a bit like giving credit to the Titanic for a wonderful start to its journey before it hit the iceberg.
Originally Posted by Parthenon:
“Not a chance for me. Spain were in control of that game for the first 40 minutes or so until Silva fluffed a great opportunity to make it 2-0. After that, Spain sought to protect their lead and the Dutch began to have more possession, and they made full use of it as Spain collapsed at the back.
Spain were poor, but not nearly as bad as Brazil were last night.”
“Not a chance for me. Spain were in control of that game for the first 40 minutes or so until Silva fluffed a great opportunity to make it 2-0. After that, Spain sought to protect their lead and the Dutch began to have more possession, and they made full use of it as Spain collapsed at the back.
Spain were poor, but not nearly as bad as Brazil were last night.”
Spain didn't concede two goals in the first 20 minutes though and that was arguably because they were playing a considerably inferior team to Germany in the form of the Netherlands.
Germany in that form would have slaughtered Spain last night (or the version of Spain we saw in the opening two matches anyway) especially if they ran in some early goals against them. Does anyone think Germany would have scored less than five goals against Spain had the two sides met yesterday evening?
It is a nonsense discussion point because your whole approach seems to be Team A beats Team B 3-0, Team B beats Team C 3-0, therefore, Team A would beat Team C 6-0.
Manchester United could win 8-0 against a mid table team but it doesn't mean they would go on a rampage of double figure results against relegation sides. Tactics, injuries and gameplans also have impact.
Manchester United could win 8-0 against a mid table team but it doesn't mean they would go on a rampage of double figure results against relegation sides. Tactics, injuries and gameplans also have impact.
Originally Posted by alanrollins:
“I must be watching a different World Cup altogether, let alone different matches.
You have to realise footballers are not robots. How Holland and Argentina have planned tactically to combat Messi and Robben respectively is not something that can be played out or explained through a review of ELO stats.”
“I must be watching a different World Cup altogether, let alone different matches.
You have to realise footballers are not robots. How Holland and Argentina have planned tactically to combat Messi and Robben respectively is not something that can be played out or explained through a review of ELO stats.”
Exactly. You can't really compare games in football, regular fans know that.
Last night's game was freakish, it was effectively all over in 30 minutes, largely as as a result of 6/7 minutes of suicidal defending by a Brazil. Germany could play Brazil every week for the next ten years and never achieve the same result.
Germany played well, but they weren't outstanding..they didn't need to be. Tonight's game was a proper contest between two sides who set up to nullify the opposition's threats. Of course I enjoyed the Germany/Brazil game, it was the kind of oddity and result that will live in the memory for ever. But it wasn't football as I know it.
Originally Posted by alanrollins:
“It is a nonsense discussion point because your whole approach seems to be Team A beats Team B 3-0, Team B beats Team C 3-0, therefore, Team A would beat Team C 6-0.
Manchester United could win 8-0 against a mid table team but it doesn't mean they would go on a rampage of double figure results against relegation sides. Tactics, injuries and gameplans also have impact.”
“It is a nonsense discussion point because your whole approach seems to be Team A beats Team B 3-0, Team B beats Team C 3-0, therefore, Team A would beat Team C 6-0.
Manchester United could win 8-0 against a mid table team but it doesn't mean they would go on a rampage of double figure results against relegation sides. Tactics, injuries and gameplans also have impact.”
Based on what we saw of Spain in the opening two matches (two games, two defeats and 7 goals conceded), had that version of Spain shown up to face Germany last night and conceded early, I think Germany would easily have put five goals past them.
Nobody has explained yet either why NL have totally failed to replicate that blistering 45 minutes against Spain. If Germany's seven goals against Brazil was a "fluke", then surely NL's 5-1 was as well?
Originally Posted by RichmondBlue:
“Exactly. You can't really compare games in football, regular fans know that.
Last night's game was freakish, it was effectively all over in 30 minutes, largely as as a result of 6/7 minutes of suicidal defending by a Brazil. Germany could play Brazil every week for the next ten years and never achieve the same result.
Germany played well, but they weren't outstanding..they didn't need to be. Tonight's game was a proper contest between two sides who set up to nullify the opposition's threats. Of course I enjoyed the Germany/Brazil game, it was the kind of oddity and result that will live in the memory for ever. But it wasn't football as I know it.”
“Exactly. You can't really compare games in football, regular fans know that.
Last night's game was freakish, it was effectively all over in 30 minutes, largely as as a result of 6/7 minutes of suicidal defending by a Brazil. Germany could play Brazil every week for the next ten years and never achieve the same result.
Germany played well, but they weren't outstanding..they didn't need to be. Tonight's game was a proper contest between two sides who set up to nullify the opposition's threats. Of course I enjoyed the Germany/Brazil game, it was the kind of oddity and result that will live in the memory for ever. But it wasn't football as I know it.
”
Yes, but what led to the "suicidal defending"?. It was the fact that there was a team in this tournament capable of going 2-0 in front against Brazil at home in the first 20 minutes. We saw shots of people in tears and in shock in the stands that Brazil could be trailing 2-0. I bet you anything the Netherlands wouldn't have scored twice in the opening 20 minutes against the Brazilians.....a semi final against them would have been a *far* sterner test than a first round match against Spain where the Dutch didn't even need to win on the night.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“Based on what we saw of Spain in the opening two matches (two games, two defeats and 7 goals conceded), had that version of Spain shown up to face Germany last night and conceded early, I think Germany would easily have put five goals past them.
Nobody has explained yet either why NL have totally failed to replicate that blistering 45 minutes against Spain. If Germany's seven goals against Brazil was a "fluke", then surely NL's 5-1 was as well?”
“Based on what we saw of Spain in the opening two matches (two games, two defeats and 7 goals conceded), had that version of Spain shown up to face Germany last night and conceded early, I think Germany would easily have put five goals past them.
Nobody has explained yet either why NL have totally failed to replicate that blistering 45 minutes against Spain. If Germany's seven goals against Brazil was a "fluke", then surely NL's 5-1 was as well?”
I just think you're trying to turn football into some kind of exact science that can be measured from game to game. The Netherlands will never be able to replicate those 45 minutes again because it's impossible. All they can do is set up in the same way, using the same tactics and possibly the same personnel, and hope it works.
How come Messi didn't perform tonight ? If he was fully fit, it's a mystery, both to himself, his manager and the rest of the team. But that's what makes football (and other sports) so fascinating, there are usually no answers despite what all the pundits will have us believe.
Originally Posted by RichmondBlue:
“I just think you're trying to turn football into some kind of exact science that can be measured from game to game. The Netherlands will never be able to replicate those 45 minutes again because it's impossible. All they can do is set up in the same way, using the same tactics and possibly the same personnel, and hope it works.
How come Messi didn't perform tonight ? If he was fully fit, it's a mystery, both to himself, his manager and the rest of the team. But that's what makes football (and other sports) so fascinating, there are usually no answers despite what all the pundits will have us believe.”
“I just think you're trying to turn football into some kind of exact science that can be measured from game to game. The Netherlands will never be able to replicate those 45 minutes again because it's impossible. All they can do is set up in the same way, using the same tactics and possibly the same personnel, and hope it works.
How come Messi didn't perform tonight ? If he was fully fit, it's a mystery, both to himself, his manager and the rest of the team. But that's what makes football (and other sports) so fascinating, there are usually no answers despite what all the pundits will have us believe.”
Which brings us back to the original topic of the thread though, the idea of trying to rank match results and compare them in a scientific manner and without resorting to opinions. Eloratings are of the opinion that Germany's 7-1 demolition of Brazil was a better performance than NL's 5-1 trashing of Spain and I would be inclined to agree with them. The opening game of the group was not a must win match for either NL or Spain - both could afford to lose the game and still harbour strong hopes of qualifying if they won their next two - but to win a World Cup semi final 7-1 is a staggering achievement (and performance).
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“Yes, but what led to the "suicidal defending"?. It was the fact that there was a team in this tournament capable of going 2-0 in front against Brazil at home in the first 20 minutes. We saw shots of people in tears and in shock in the stands that Brazil could be trailing 2-0. I bet you anything the Netherlands wouldn't have scored twice in the opening 20 minutes against the Brazilians.....a semi final against them would have been a *far* sterner test than a first round match against Spain where the Dutch didn't even need to win on the night.”
“Yes, but what led to the "suicidal defending"?. It was the fact that there was a team in this tournament capable of going 2-0 in front against Brazil at home in the first 20 minutes. We saw shots of people in tears and in shock in the stands that Brazil could be trailing 2-0. I bet you anything the Netherlands wouldn't have scored twice in the opening 20 minutes against the Brazilians.....a semi final against them would have been a *far* sterner test than a first round match against Spain where the Dutch didn't even need to win on the night.”
Brazil went a goal down after 11 minutes. Poor defending but nothing extraordinary about that. Then came that freakish period when Brazil just went to pieces and conceded four more goals in 7 crazy minutes..Germany scored in the 23, 24, 26 and 29th minutes.
Why did Brazil collapse like that ?..nobody knows. I expect they will analyse over and over again, and find an excuse for each of those goals. It will probably never happen to them again, but there's no comfort in that.
Would the Netherlands have been able to do the same ?..we will never know. Sometimes it's all down to that butterfly flapping it's wings in some Amazonian rain forest.
Originally Posted by RichmondBlue:
“Brazil went a goal down after 11 minutes. Poor defending but nothing extraordinary about that. Then came that freakish period when Brazil just went to pieces and conceded four more goals in 7 crazy minutes..Germany scored in the 23, 24, 26 and 29th minutes.
Why did Brazil collapse like that ?..nobody knows. I expect they will analyse over and over again, and find an excuse for each of those goals. It will probably never happen to them again, but there's no comfort in that.
Would the Netherlands have been able to do the same ?..we will never know. Sometimes it's all down to that butterfly flapping it's wings in some Amazonian rain forest.”
“Brazil went a goal down after 11 minutes. Poor defending but nothing extraordinary about that. Then came that freakish period when Brazil just went to pieces and conceded four more goals in 7 crazy minutes..Germany scored in the 23, 24, 26 and 29th minutes.
Why did Brazil collapse like that ?..nobody knows. I expect they will analyse over and over again, and find an excuse for each of those goals. It will probably never happen to them again, but there's no comfort in that.
Would the Netherlands have been able to do the same ?..we will never know. Sometimes it's all down to that butterfly flapping it's wings in some Amazonian rain forest.
”
I can actually answer why they collapsed like that : it was because it was utterly unprecedented in Brazil's footballing history, I don't have the stats in front of me but I'm guessing Brazil have never been 2-0 down in a competitive match at home in their history. You could see the looks of shock and bewilderment and people in tears in the stands when they went 2-0 behind, it was incomprehensible to them. So shattered were they by the experience, that they fell to pieces and conceded three more in the next 8 minutes or so.
I would argue that Germany were the only team in the tournament who could do this to Brazil and make them look mediocre. I thought Netherlands and Argentina looked rather ordinary tonight and I cannot conceive that either would be good enough to score two early goals against Brazil and then add another five : the Netherlands had one solitary shot on target tonight during 120 minutes of play.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“Well that's where Eloratings are able to come into play and they tell us that Germany's 7-1 demolition of Brazil was a far more impressive performance than Holland's 5-1 win over Spain.....the Dutch may well have won tonight, but I have my doubts they could have been 7-0 up with ten minutes to go.”
“Well that's where Eloratings are able to come into play and they tell us that Germany's 7-1 demolition of Brazil was a far more impressive performance than Holland's 5-1 win over Spain.....the Dutch may well have won tonight, but I have my doubts they could have been 7-0 up with ten minutes to go.”
Germany beat the worst Brazilian side to ever pull on the jersey. It wasn't like they had to work that hard for the goals either. The Holland vs Spain result was Holland dismantling the current World Cup winners and good defenders, not mugs like David Luiz and Marcelo.
Originally Posted by FrankieFixer:
“Germany beat the worst Brazilian side to ever pull on the jersey. It wasn't like they had to work that hard for the goals either. The Holland vs Spain result was Holland dismantling the current World Cup winners and good defenders, not mugs like David Luiz and Marcelo.”
“Germany beat the worst Brazilian side to ever pull on the jersey. It wasn't like they had to work that hard for the goals either. The Holland vs Spain result was Holland dismantling the current World Cup winners and good defenders, not mugs like David Luiz and Marcelo.”
I would definitely agree that this is the worst Brazilian team ever which made Germany's task easier.
But Spain lost 2-0 to Chile in the next match and then Chile were brushed aside 2-0 by the Netherlands in Match 3, which suggest the Spanish team that showed up in this tournament were no great shakes at all.
Originally Posted by alanrollins:
“I must be watching a different World Cup altogether, let alone different matches.
You have to realise footballers are not robots. How Holland and Argentina have planned tactically to combat Messi and Robben respectively is not something that can be played out or explained through a review of ELO stats.”
“I must be watching a different World Cup altogether, let alone different matches.
You have to realise footballers are not robots. How Holland and Argentina have planned tactically to combat Messi and Robben respectively is not something that can be played out or explained through a review of ELO stats.”
Wow someone who understands football. Brilliant tactics tonight from both teams. Germany will struggle immensely against Argentina because they can't play against a very tight midfield. A game doesn't need 8 goals to be exciting.
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