I'd argue Gerrard HAS spent a lot of his Liverpool career playing with an average team...
Predicted that England will drop to No.20 in the FIFA rankings
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Originally Posted by ACU:
“Lets face it we are or not far of rubbish. You saying we arent, doesnt make it so.
When facing any of the top teams, we wont win. We are brilliant against the likes of Moldova, Azerbhijan and Kazakstan. The commentators start to use words like worldclass and world beater when describing our players. However up against a top 10 team, we fall to bits.
Gerrard and Rooney were shite again this world cup, as they were in the last world cup. However give it a few games into the premiership season and once again they will be described as world class. World Class my gluteus maximus.”
“Lets face it we are or not far of rubbish. You saying we arent, doesnt make it so.
When facing any of the top teams, we wont win. We are brilliant against the likes of Moldova, Azerbhijan and Kazakstan. The commentators start to use words like worldclass and world beater when describing our players. However up against a top 10 team, we fall to bits.
Gerrard and Rooney were shite again this world cup, as they were in the last world cup. However give it a few games into the premiership season and once again they will be described as world class. World Class my gluteus maximus.”
Another interesting point is that there are no English players playing for the big European teams. It's very telling that none of the clubs across the Continent are remotely interested in buying an English player.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“Another interesting point is that there are no English players playing for the big European teams. It's very telling that none of the clubs across the Continent are remotely interested in buying an English player.”
“Another interesting point is that there are no English players playing for the big European teams. It's very telling that none of the clubs across the Continent are remotely interested in buying an English player.”
I wouldn't say that at all. The fact is most of the English players who are in the 'very good' category already play for some of the biggest teams in the world, in their own countries and paid ridiculously well. Plus we have no idea whether teams have tried to sign players or not.
Originally Posted by gemma-the-husky:
“Murray got knocked out in the QF and is down to 10 in the world.”
“Murray got knocked out in the QF and is down to 10 in the world.”
That's only because he's missed a lot of tournaments in the last year through injury though.
Originally Posted by walterwhite:
“I wouldn't say that at all. The fact is most of the English players who are in the 'very good' category already play for some of the biggest teams in the world, in their own countries and paid ridiculously well. Plus we have no idea whether teams have tried to sign players or not.”
“I wouldn't say that at all. The fact is most of the English players who are in the 'very good' category already play for some of the biggest teams in the world, in their own countries and paid ridiculously well. Plus we have no idea whether teams have tried to sign players or not.”
It does tend to undermine the argument of Rooney and Gerrard etc being "world class" players though. We see lots of other star players moving around the European leagues, but never hear of the likes of Barcelona, Milan or Bayern trying to lure a current England international and haven't done for some time.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“It does tend to undermine the argument of Rooney and Gerrard etc being "world class" players though. We see lots of other star players moving around the European leagues, but never hear of the likes of Barcelona, Milan or Bayern trying to lure a current England international and haven't done for some time.”
“It does tend to undermine the argument of Rooney and Gerrard etc being "world class" players though. We see lots of other star players moving around the European leagues, but never hear of the likes of Barcelona, Milan or Bayern trying to lure a current England international and haven't done for some time.”
As i've pointed out there are many reasons. There is no need for them to go abroad for a multitude of reasons. Trust me, if Gerrard or Rooney had wanted to move abroad at their peak there would have been lots of takers.
Originally Posted by walterwhite:
“As i've pointed out there are many reasons. There is no need for them to go abroad for a multitude of reasons. Trust me, if Gerrard or Rooney had wanted to move abroad at their peak there would have been lots of takers.”
“As i've pointed out there are many reasons. There is no need for them to go abroad for a multitude of reasons. Trust me, if Gerrard or Rooney had wanted to move abroad at their peak there would have been lots of takers.”
Agree. When Gazza moved to Lazio, he was offered a salary that I believe no English club could have given him. That's no longer the case for top English players. Besides lots of top Spanish, Italian and German players never leave their domestic leagues.
Originally Posted by walterwhite:
“I wouldn't say that at all. The fact is most of the English players who are in the 'very good' category already play for some of the biggest teams in the world, in their own countries and paid ridiculously well. Plus we have no idea whether teams have tried to sign players or not.”
“I wouldn't say that at all. The fact is most of the English players who are in the 'very good' category already play for some of the biggest teams in the world, in their own countries and paid ridiculously well. Plus we have no idea whether teams have tried to sign players or not.”
Has the market been distorted or at least affected by the huge wealth of the new elite clubs in England? It's difficult to see why any English/British player let alone the 'very good' players would ever move to Europe as few of the top Euro clubs and none of the clubs below the top could beat the wages in the EPL.
I suppose in this context the question is whether English players not playing in Europe has any impact on the English national team? Many of the English players play in the Champions League so really they do get experience of playing against the best in Europe and beyond.
In answer to the main question I think England are a bit unlucky to end up at 20. Normally England would be between 6 - 10 in the rankings and that's about right.
England's record in qualifying for major tournaments is good, they are normally at least last 16 or last 8 at WC/Euros.
Originally Posted by walterwhite:
“As i've pointed out there are many reasons. There is no need for them to go abroad for a multitude of reasons. Trust me, if Gerrard or Rooney had wanted to move abroad at their peak there would have been lots of takers.”
“As i've pointed out there are many reasons. There is no need for them to go abroad for a multitude of reasons. Trust me, if Gerrard or Rooney had wanted to move abroad at their peak there would have been lots of takers.”
I agree that the gigantic salaries in the EPL are a major factor in this. But in any event, we still have the solid evidence of Rooney and Gerrard flopping every time they've competed in the WC and the Euros.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“I agree that the gigantic salaries in the EPL are a major factor in this. But in any event, we still have the solid evidence of Rooney and Gerrard flopping every time they've competed in the WC and the Euros.”
“I agree that the gigantic salaries in the EPL are a major factor in this. But in any event, we still have the solid evidence of Rooney and Gerrard flopping every time they've competed in the WC and the Euros.”
I thought Gerrard had a good last Euros and Rooney had a good first Euros but I'm being a bit pedantic because I agree with your general point - generally they haven't performed well in the big international events.
I think not many top British players go outside Britain because (a) their wages get inflated beyond their real value in the Premier League and (b) Barcelona, Real, and Bayern are only really looking for superstars and we (Britain) currently only have one and he's already at Real. Who else would they want right at this minute?
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“I agree that the gigantic salaries in the EPL are a major factor in this. But in any event, we still have the solid evidence of Rooney and Gerrard flopping every time they've competed in the WC and the Euros.”
“I agree that the gigantic salaries in the EPL are a major factor in this. But in any event, we still have the solid evidence of Rooney and Gerrard flopping every time they've competed in the WC and the Euros.”
Rooney hasn't flopped every time, especially considering he has been injured and shouldn't have gone to at least 2 tournaments.
Originally Posted by Jim_McIntosh:
“I thought Gerrard had a good last Euros and Rooney had a good first Euros but I'm being a bit pedantic because I agree with your general point - generally they haven't performed well in the big international events.
I think not many top British players go outside Britain because (a) their wages get inflated beyond their real value in the Premier League and (b) Barcelona, Real, and Bayern are only really looking for superstars and we (Britain) currently only have one and he's already at Real. Who else would they want right at this minute?”
“I thought Gerrard had a good last Euros and Rooney had a good first Euros but I'm being a bit pedantic because I agree with your general point - generally they haven't performed well in the big international events.
I think not many top British players go outside Britain because (a) their wages get inflated beyond their real value in the Premier League and (b) Barcelona, Real, and Bayern are only really looking for superstars and we (Britain) currently only have one and he's already at Real. Who else would they want right at this minute?”
Which brings us back to whether there are any "world class" players in the England team at all.
I think people have wised up to this at last though. There was a lot of crazy talk in 2006 of the 'golden generation' and how England had potentially the best squad in the tournament and could even win the World Cup. But then we saw them labour through the tournament with a series of workmanlike and unimpressive performances. I think the English media have calmed down considerably since then and ditched the hype.
For a major footballing nation, England has never been as good as they should have been in the World Cup. We ought to be up there with Germany and Italy. We were pretty hopeless 1950-1962. We had a decent spell 1966-1970. We failed to qualify then until 1982. We then had a decent run until 1990. Next run was 1998-2006. We've looked very poor since. But we've never played like world beaters even when we won it.
Suggests there's more to it than not enough English players in top English teams.
Suggests there's more to it than not enough English players in top English teams.
Originally Posted by Eurostar:
“Which brings us back to whether there are any "world class" players in the England team at all.
I think people have wised up to this at last though. There was a lot of crazy talk in 2006 of the 'golden generation' and how England had potentially the best squad in the tournament and could even win the World Cup. But then we saw them labour through the tournament with a series of workmanlike and unimpressive performances. I think the English media have calmed down considerably since then and ditched the hype.”
“Which brings us back to whether there are any "world class" players in the England team at all.
I think people have wised up to this at last though. There was a lot of crazy talk in 2006 of the 'golden generation' and how England had potentially the best squad in the tournament and could even win the World Cup. But then we saw them labour through the tournament with a series of workmanlike and unimpressive performances. I think the English media have calmed down considerably since then and ditched the hype.”
I don't think there are. I think I'm in the majority too.
It all depends on what you term "world class". To me, it's players who come into the discussion when we are talking about being in the top 3-4 players in the world in their position. Last England player who might have been that - maybe Ashley Cole 5 years ago? England probably produced better defenders (Campbell, King, Terry, Ferdinand) than it has attacking players in the past decade or so and those players get hyped less than a striker would.
Originally Posted by Mandark:
“For a major footballing nation, England has never been as good as they should have been in the World Cup. We ought to be up there with Germany and Italy. We were pretty hopeless 1950-1962. We had a decent spell 1966-1970. We failed to qualify then until 1982. We then had a decent run until 1990. Next run was 1998-2006. We've looked very poor since. But we've never played like world beaters even when we won it.
Suggests there's more to it than not enough English players in top English teams.”
“For a major footballing nation, England has never been as good as they should have been in the World Cup. We ought to be up there with Germany and Italy. We were pretty hopeless 1950-1962. We had a decent spell 1966-1970. We failed to qualify then until 1982. We then had a decent run until 1990. Next run was 1998-2006. We've looked very poor since. But we've never played like world beaters even when we won it.
Suggests there's more to it than not enough English players in top English teams.”
Even the win in 1966 had a lot of luck about it. There was a fair amount of this discussion about this recently on the forum, such as dodgy refereeing decisions that went their way (especially against Argentina and Germany) and how England controversially moved their semi final against Portugal from the less intimidating Goodison Park to Wembley.
England's big problem for the last 10 or 20 years or so has been lack of technique. They just don't have the skillful players who can pass the ball accurately....they are not an attractive side to watch at any of the tournaments (all the 'home' nations have the same problem in fact, which suggests there may well be a major issue with coaching in the British game).
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