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Old 16-07-2014, 10:43
Stormageddon
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I've just bought a Sony 50 inch KDL 829 which I'm using with a five year old Panasonic Blu ray player.
The TV is fantastic except for one thing : When I try to watch a DVD which is not in widescreen, it will not display it as it was meant to be seen, in 4:3 ratio. It stretches the image to fill the screen instead of showing black bars at the side...
I've tried everything in the menus to change this but with no success.
Is the problem my old blu ray player ?
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Old 16-07-2014, 11:50
Nigel Goodwin
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I've just bought a Sony 50 inch KDL 829 which I'm using with a five year old Panasonic Blu ray player.
The TV is fantastic except for one thing : When I try to watch a DVD which is not in widescreen, it will not display it as it was meant to be seen, in 4:3 ratio. It stretches the image to fill the screen instead of showing black bars at the side...
I've tried everything in the menus to change this but with no success.
Is the problem my old blu ray player ?
HDMI is effectively considered to be 16:9 (particularly in HD), so your BD player needs to output it with black bars either side - there 'should' be a menu setting on the BD player to do this, if not turning up-scaling OFF might help (and let the TV up-scale it instead).
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Old 16-07-2014, 12:05
Deacon1972
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What screen format are you using on the TV - Wide, Normal, Full or Zoom?
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Old 16-07-2014, 13:12
Nigel Goodwin
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What screen format are you using on the TV - Wide, Normal, Full or Zoom?
You don't get those options on HDMI - just tried on a KDL-32EX310, the options are Full, Zoom and Wide Zoom on HDMI.

Just checked the Icecrypt satellite box I'm feeding it from, the options there are Auto, 16:9, 4:3PS, 4:3LB
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Old 16-07-2014, 13:28
Deacon1972
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You don't get those options on HDMI - just tried on a KDL-32EX310, the options are Full, Zoom and Wide Zoom on HDMI.

Just checked the Icecrypt satellite box I'm feeding it from, the options there are Auto, 16:9, 4:3PS, 4:3LB
Those options I gave were from the 50KDL829 i-manual, I checked to see if there were any restrictions over HDMI but I couldn't see anything mentioned.

Do Sony not publish this data?
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Old 16-07-2014, 14:47
Nigel Goodwin
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Those options I gave were from the 50KDL829 i-manual, I checked to see if there were any restrictions over HDMI but I couldn't see anything mentioned.

Do Sony not publish this data?
No idea, but any remotely recent set has the manual on the screen, with only a small paper one.
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Old 16-07-2014, 16:19
kjhskj75
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What is the "TV Type" setting in the bluray player ?

It should be set to 16:9

NOT "16:9Full"
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Old 17-07-2014, 08:29
bobcar
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You don't get those options on HDMI - just tried on a KDL-32EX310, the options are Full, Zoom and Wide Zoom on HDMI.
Do you know if this is common amongst Sony sets? When My Panny plasma gives up the ghost a Sony LCD was the most likely replacement but this would probably rule that out if it is across the range.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:33
anthony david
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Do you know if this is common amongst Sony sets? When My Panny plasma gives up the ghost a Sony LCD was the most likely replacement but this would probably rule that out if it is across the range.
No it's not a Sony problem. HD is 16x9 only, 4x3 is not an option and never has been although TV manufactures are free to include anything they want in this regard. The source, BD in this case, should either be set in its menu to pillar box for 4X3 SD material or, easier still, set not to upscale SD content. Sonys TV scalers are good so the pictures may look better that way anyway. On a Humax Fox T2 for example if you set the output to 1080i you need to select 4X3 using the Wide button on 4X3 SD sources. My Sony SD DVD player has no format problems with SD if the output is set to 576 rather than 1080. Genuine 4X3 BDs are pillar boxed during post production and display as such although the image is actually 16X9 as far as the TV is concerned.
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Old 17-07-2014, 13:30
Deacon1972
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No it's not a Sony problem. HD is 16x9 only, 4x3 is not an option and never has been although TV manufactures are free to include anything they want in this regard. The source, BD in this case, should either be set in its menu to pillar box for 4X3 SD material or, easier still, set not to upscale SD content. Sonys TV scalers are good so the pictures may look better that way anyway. On a Humax Fox T2 for example if you set the output to 1080i you need to select 4X3 using the Wide button on 4X3 SD sources. My Sony SD DVD player has no format problems with SD if the output is set to 576 rather than 1080. Genuine 4X3 BDs are pillar boxed during post production and display as such although the image is actually 16X9 as far as the TV is concerned.
Yes, HD channels are shown in a 16x9 frame over HDMI, but there are still a good number of SD channels which include 4x3 that can be viewed over HDMI too - my view is you should be able to select ratios on the display device, not having to go into various stb menu's and adjust your settings depending on what format you are watching.

I have three LG TV's and one Sony, the Sony is the only one that doesn't allow 4x3, 14x9, 16x9 and original (normal on the Sony) over HDMI.

Sky box can be set to 1080i (preference to auto because of blank screen switch over time), on 4x3 material we only need to select 4x3 on LG TV remote to restore OAR. This applies to any source we have connected.

Not that we watch very much SD, 4x3 even less, but ratio switching over HDMI is something I would prefer and something I will look for on our next TV, just for those occasions when we do.
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Old 17-07-2014, 14:18
bobcar
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No it's not a Sony problem. HD is 16x9 only, 4x3 is not an option and never has been although TV manufactures are free to include anything they want in this regard.
Sorry it is a Sony problem, my Panny does this fine. Although HD is always 16:9 (a mistake in my opinion) SD can be 4:3.
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Old 17-07-2014, 14:24
bobcar
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Sky box can be set to 1080i (preference to auto because of blank screen switch over time), on 4x3 material we only need to select 4x3 on LG TV remote to restore OAR. This applies to any source we have connected.
Indeed a decent TV should provide this switching and Sony TVs are generally decent so I'm surprised by this omission. I've cancelled Sky now but I had to watch in 1080i because of a software bug affecting my Pace Sky HD on 576p.

The TV shouldn't rely on the source providing the switching but should be capable itself, it's not like it's difficult as the TV already provides this functionality for other inputs.

Not that we watch very much SD, 4x3 even less, but ratio switching over HDMI is something I would prefer and something I will look for on our next TV, just for those occasions when we do.
Same here.
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Old 17-07-2014, 14:53
Nigel Goodwin
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Do you know if this is common amongst Sony sets? When My Panny plasma gives up the ghost a Sony LCD was the most likely replacement but this would probably rule that out if it is across the range.
Why would you want such a silly and useless option?, set the source to output correctly and everything works fine - I don't see how setting BOTH units to the wrong settings is something you would want?.

The situation in this thread is that the source is stretching the 4:3 picture to 16:9, upscaling it to HD, and then transferring it as a perfectly valid 16:9 HD picture - there's no reason for the TV to want to change this.

Set the source NOT to stretch the picture (and possibly not to upscale as well - I can't comment without a Panasonic BD to play with), and you will get 4:3 with black bands on the TV as required.
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Old 17-07-2014, 16:04
bobcar
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Why would you want such a silly and useless option?, set the source to output correctly and everything works fine - I don't see how setting BOTH units to the wrong settings is something you would want?.
Okay. I have my Sky box* set to 1080i because it doesn't work properly set to auto. That stretches the screen to fattyvision for a 4:3 programme, no problem on my Panny because that will let me switch it to 4:3 but on the Sony I'm stuck with fattyvision.

Yes you can argue the Sky should allow pill boxing for 4:3 but because Panasonic doesn't have the strange restriction of the Sony this is not a problem. On other occasions I may have a separate recording stretched from a variety of sources (youtube etc). That's why I want the "silly and useless option". It costs nothing to have this feature so why not have it?

Since you think this is a "silly and useless feature" please explain how I can watch my 1080i stretched picture without this feature, it must be easy or the feature wouldn't be "silly and pointless". I actually think that a TV being flexible and allowing for the input not being perfect is a good thing.

I take it the Sony will automatically switch for SD 4:3 over HDMI and that this restriction just applies for HD over HDMI?

*My Sky subscription is almost ended so the problem in that respect dissapears but that doesn't alter the principle.
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Old 17-07-2014, 16:13
anthony david
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Sorry it is a Sony problem, my Panny does this fine. Although HD is always 16:9 (a mistake in my opinion) SD can be 4:3.
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. On a Sony, like your Panasonic, HD is always 16X9, SD can be 16X9 or 4X3 and will switch automatically on a SD source. Upscaling makes the TV think it is an HD source and therefore must be 16X9. Devices normally have the option to put 4X3 pictures in 16X9 pillar box format if the user wishes to upscale the SD material although there is little point in doing this as Sony and Panasonic TVs have excellent scalers.
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Old 17-07-2014, 16:36
bobcar
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Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. On a Sony, like your Panasonic, HD is always 16X9, SD can be 16X9 or 4X3 and will switch automatically on a SD source. Upscaling makes the TV think it is an HD source and therefore must be 16X9. Devices normally have the option to put 4X3 pictures in 16X9 pillar box format if the user wishes to upscale the SD material although there is little point in doing this as Sony and Panasonic TVs have excellent scalers.
You did make yourself clear and I don't disagree with what you've written here. However devices don't always behave ideally or a source may not always be correct in which case having the TV able to correct this is a good thing and I'm used to that from my Panny, I expected it from a Sony as well.

My (soon to be ex) Sky box is an example of something that doesn't do this. I used to use in "Auto" mode but because of a bug introduced with EPG changes that is not possible so it only outputs stretched 1080i that I need to set to 4:3 on the TV.
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Old 17-07-2014, 16:57
Deacon1972
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Why would you want such a silly and useless option?, set the source to output correctly and everything works fine - I don't see how setting BOTH units to the wrong settings is something you would want?.
The silly and useless option would allow you to view the content correctly when you have no control.

......for example.

When my Sky box is set to automatic my LG TV's will show all content in it's OAR providing aspect ratio setting is on Original - it also gives you 4x3, 14x9, 16x9, Zoom1, Zoom2 and Cinema.

My Sony TV will not switch at all, basically because the setting to allow auto switching is not available over HDMI, only scart, there's not even a 4x3 option to switch manually, so the default picture setting is set to 16x9, therefore all 4x3 is stretched.

Sony give the option to get rid of black bars where you lose picture information but no option to add them so you can watch content in it's OAR - to me they have got that the wrong way around.
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Old 17-07-2014, 17:40
Deacon1972
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Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. On a Sony, like your Panasonic, HD is always 16X9, SD can be 16X9 or 4X3 and will switch automatically on a SD source. Upscaling makes the TV think it is an HD source and therefore must be 16X9. Devices normally have the option to put 4X3 pictures in 16X9 pillar box format if the user wishes to upscale the SD material although there is little point in doing this as Sony and Panasonic TVs have excellent scalers.
A Sky box set to Automatic will do automatic switching over HDMI, how that is presented is down to the TV.

My LG's will switch between 4x3 and 16x9 when aspect ratio is set to Original, also got the option to switch manually, 4x3, 14x9 etc.

The Sony I have will not switch, the Normal setting that does the auto switching is not available over HDMI, therefore the default over HDMI is 16x9, so all 4x3 is stretched.
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Old 17-07-2014, 21:44
bobcar
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The Sony I have will not switch, the Normal setting that does the auto switching is not available over HDMI, therefore the default over HDMI is 16x9, so all 4x3 is stretched.
That's worse than I thought. 4:3 SD is one of the standard HDMI resolutions so if the Sony does not do this then it is not meeting the HDMI spec compared to not allowing you to set 4:3 on HD which is just a missing feature that really should be there on a decent spec TV.

When I do replace my plasma I'm going to have to do some serious research on this, the problem is finding this information out.
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Old 17-07-2014, 22:35
Deacon1972
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That's worse than I thought. 4:3 SD is one of the standard HDMI resolutions so if the Sony does not do this then it is not meeting the HDMI spec compared to not allowing you to set 4:3 on HD which is just a missing feature that really should be there on a decent spec TV.

When I do replace my plasma I'm going to have to do some serious research on this, the problem is finding this information out.
The set is nearly 7yrs old, I thought it was me to begin with, I went through every setting/combination but could never get SD 4x3 to switch over on HDMI with Sky set to automatic. No problem with 4x3 on HD, but that's pillar boxed by the broadcaster.

I do remember the manual saying something along the lines of, 4x3 and 14x9 aspect ratios are not available manually on HD input. This looks to be omitted from current manuals, I've no idea how the deal with SD 4x3 over HDMI on current sets, they don't seem to have an auto or 4x3 option on HDMI.

Maybe Nigel can do some investigating regarding this.
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Old 18-07-2014, 08:47
Nigel Goodwin
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Maybe Nigel can do some investigating regarding this.
As far as I know, setting the Sky box to Auto means it sends SD to the set which displays it with black bars either side. But I can't say I've tied it recently.
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Old 18-07-2014, 09:27
bobcar
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As far as I know, setting the Sky box to Auto means it sends SD to the set which displays it with black bars either side. But I can't say I've tied it recently.
I don't think the Sky box has ever done that. Certainly mine has always (for 4:3 SD) sent a 576p 4:3 picture that the TV recognises as 4:3 and provides it's own bars. This is how HDMI is supposed to work and 4:3/16:9 switching has never been a problem with Sky and my Panny TV over HDMI. (Unfortunately I now have to use 1080i now because of a Sky Pace bug that causes the picture to shimmer after a day if Automatic is selected hence one reason why I need a manual shift on the TV because 1080i makes 4:3 SD fattyvision).

The Sony TV (at least certain models, who knows about them all) not only has the problem of not allow manual alteration of aspect ratio (why not?) but also doesn't do automatic switching for SD which is part of the HDMI spec.

I'm now getting rid of Sky (few days left) and my replacement Humax PVRs do add black bars so this would not be an issue even with the Sony. If however I ever go back to Sky (quite possible) then the Sony fault would stop me buying that model TV as I do watch 4:3 programmes and I don't want to have to keep switching back to SCART to do it.

Do you now understand the problem with not supplying aspect ratio switching on HDMI?
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Old 18-07-2014, 09:29
Deacon1972
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As far as I know, setting the Sky box to Auto means it sends SD to the set which displays it with black bars either side. But I can't say I've tied it recently.
If you get the opportunity to try it I'd appreciate it, as would bobcarr, as it would clear things up regarding current models.
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Old 18-07-2014, 09:36
bobcar
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If you get the opportunity to try it I'd appreciate it, as would bobcarr, as it would clear things up regarding current models.
The Sky box works correctly over HDMI for SD when Automatic is set (except for the specific Pace bug that prevents Automatic being used) where the Sky box falls down is not having the option to add bars when 1080i is used.

The key for me is how current Sony TVs behave - or more accurately how the models at the time of my purchase behave when I need to replace my plasma, at the moment it's going strong touch wood.
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Old 18-07-2014, 10:35
Deacon1972
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The Sky box works correctly over HDMI for SD when Automatic is set (except for the specific Pace bug that prevents Automatic being used) where the Sky box falls down is not having the option to add bars when 1080i is used.

The key for me is how current Sony TVs behave - or more accurately how the models at the time of my purchase behave when I need to replace my plasma, at the moment it's going strong touch wood.
Sky box could do with a 720/1080i and 720/1080i wide setting....

Looks like Sony are still omitting manual switching of 4x3 over HDMI, no idea how they deal with SD 4x3 in other areas.

Upgrade for me will be sooner rather than later, my nearly nine year old plasma is showing signs of ysus board failure, coloured sparklies on screen - can't complain, been a good set.

Just out of interest, what setting do Panasonic use for auto switching over HDMI.
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