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Shirley Carter: The attempted child murderer.


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Old 17-07-2014, 10:35
Aaron1995
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Am I the only one who is bothered about this? Shirley has committed an evil crime, and in many ways it is worse than what Chrissie, Stacey, Ronnie and Janine did. As they all killed evil men, while Shirley attempted to kill an innocent child but luckily Stan saved Mick.

Surely she deserves some sort comeuppance for attempting to kill Mick. And before anyone attempts to throw out the mental illness card, it was established onscreen that Shirley knew exactly what she was doing.

Time to throw this evil woman into prison! Or preferably in a coffin!
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Old 17-07-2014, 10:39
blue_cheese
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Am I the only one who is bothered about this? Shirley has committed an evil crime, and in many ways it is worse than what Chrissie, Stacey, Ronnie and Janine did. As they all killed evil men, while Shirley attempted to kill an innocent child but luckily Stan saved Mick.

Surely she deserves some sort comeuppance for attempting to kill Mick. And before anyone attempts to throw out the mental illness card, it was established onscreen that Shirley knew exactly what she was doing.

Time to throw this evil woman into prison! Or preferably in a coffin
!
that is a disgusting thing to say. Thousand's of women get post natal depression and try stuff like this. Its because they are not in the right frame of mind as you emotions are every where. Years ago there was even less help and less recognition of this illness, because that is what it is an illness. May of know what she was doing but her frame on mind still would of changed from having a baby also at a young ago. No man will ever know what it feels like to be in that position.

also she was a child!!! That is why there is a legal age on sex.

No man should ever comment on stuff like this and especially suggesting the person should die is beyond sick!!!
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Old 17-07-2014, 10:48
Aaron1995
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that is a disgusting thing to say. Thousand's of women get post natal depression and try stuff like this. Its because they are not in the right frame of mind as you emotions are every where. Years ago there was even less help and less recognition of this illness, because that is what it is an illness. May of know what she was doing but her frame on mind still would of changed from having a baby also at a young ago. No man will ever know what it feels like to be in that position.

also she was a child!!! That is why there is a legal age on sex.

No man should ever comment on stuff like this and especially suggesting the person should die is beyond sick!!!
She is a fictional character and it was never established once onscreen that she had post natal depression.

People who don't like characters often state that they want that particular character to die. It is nothing new.
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Old 17-07-2014, 10:49
wizardt
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Shirley certainly knew what she was doing when she tried to KILL her own son. But many people seem to forgive her because we are supposed to feel sorry for her. What she did was wrong and I don't care if she was young, it was a disgusting thing to do. She was not suffering from a mental illness or anything.
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Old 17-07-2014, 10:51
Ell_Ren
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that is a disgusting thing to say. Thousand's of women get post natal depression and try stuff like this. Its because they are not in the right frame of mind as you emotions are every where. Years ago there was even less help and less recognition of this illness, because that is what it is an illness. May of know what she was doing but her frame on mind still would of changed from having a baby also at a young ago. No man will ever know what it feels like to be in that position.

also she was a child!!! That is why there is a legal age on sex.

No man can ever comment on stuff like this.
This^

Shirley had a breakdown after her mother left so mentally she wouldn't have been in the right frame of mind. It's been made very clear on screen that Shirley was a mess and it wasn't premeditated, she wasn't intending on killing him. Shirley said to Phil that it was in that one moment, she didn't know what she was doing and she didn't want that, Stan also said he pulled Mick out and left Shirley just staring at the bath water, I think that is pretty clear that she wasn't in the right frame of mind.

Postnatal depression is a route I think they should explore with Mick's birth esp as in the 70's it wouldn't have been as recognized and Shirley wouldn't have received any help as no one who could help, knew she was his mum. Maybe, she had it with Dean too?

Bib: completely agree.

When people don't like a character they wont accept the whole story, same thing happened with Ronnie and the baby swap.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:01
J-B
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I take it some here haven't got the memo from Elstree?

Lady Shirley is the saviour and face of Eastenders, and it is treasonous to suggest that the sun does not shine from her buttocks. The apparent 'drowning' mentioned in the OP will here on in be referred to as 'The Royal Christening'.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:02
Boofie
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I agree. Trying to kill a baby, it's awful.

It's never even been said she had post natal depression and if she did it's no excuse. You can't just go around murdering people because you have depression
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:10
Lizzie Brookes
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I don't particularly like Shirley but it was a very long time ago and nothing happened, thanks to Stan. Mick and Stan seem to have forgiven her and she's hardly a danger to society. It was a moment of madness. The police have more important things to deal with and this is a family matter so it's up to the family what happens.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:10
Ell_Ren
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I agree. Trying to kill a baby, it's awful.

It's never even been said she had post natal depression and if she did it's no excuse. You can't just go around murdering people because you have depression
They haven't explored why it happened really except that she had a mental breakdown, I think they need to give us more info before a proper judgement can be made. It has been said that she wasn't trying to kill him, you make it sound like it was a premeditated action, Phil acknowledged that Shirley has been punishing herself her whole life because of it. It has been said many times that it was a moment of madness and obviously Stan agrees or he wouldn't have let it go.

If it was postnatal depression and/or a breakdown, it would be plausible, an awful thing to do, but plausible and unless you have experienced postnatal depression or a breakdown, you wouldn't make a comment like that, it's a two way street.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:15
londongirlGre
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I agree. Trying to kill a baby, it's awful.

It's never even been said she had post natal depression and if she did it's no excuse. You can't just go around murdering people because you have depression
I agree.

Going by previous things that have happened in real life, people think that if a woman who has post natal depression kills their kids, it makes them less of a horrible person for committing the crime.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:25
Filiman
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The most outrageous aspect of this thread is that no man can comment!! Really???

I have a pretty progressive attitude towards women's reproductive rights believing that ultimately it is up to the women whether to carry the child; but once the child is born a man/father has every right to be a part of the consequences of living with that child. There is also an increasing field of study that suggests men can get a form of depression after the birth of a child as various evolutionary hormones kick in for the male to.

What a ridiculous thing to suggest otherwise.

As for Shirley, were this a one off then it could just be painted as post natal depression. But there is a strong of behaviours at work here that suggest this cannot just be attributed to that. Shirley is a vile, selfish, self centred woman who has proven over and again the little regard she hold her children in. We are not talking about a model mother, where pnd would account for *abberant* behaviour. This is her standard behaviour and she should be judged for the despicable person she is.

This is just one act in a list of anti-social behaviour and she really is a menace to society.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:32
Sunset Dale
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There's always an excuse for her behaviour. I seriously think some people think she's like a tragic fallen angel or something.

Imagine if she had killed Mick. It would be like oh don't worry about it Shirley you obviously suffered from post natal depression from people here. Followed by a lot of sympathetic comments and Shirley love. Mick would forgotten. Probably would be saying it was all the baby's fault.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:34
blue_cheese
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The most outrageous aspect of this thread is that no man can comment!! Really???

I have a pretty progressive attitude towards women's reproductive rights believing that ultimately it is up to the women whether to carry the child; but once the child is born a man/father has every right to be a part of the consequences of living with that child. There is also an increasing field of study that suggests men can get a form of depression after the birth of a child as various evolutionary hormones kick in for the male to.

What a ridiculous thing to suggest otherwise.

As for Shirley, were this a one off then it could just be painted as post natal depression. But there is a strong of behaviours at work here that suggest this cannot just be attributed to that. Shirley is a vile, selfish, self centred woman who has proven over and again the little regard she hold her children in. We are not talking about a model mother, where pnd would account for *abberant* behaviour. This is her standard behaviour and she should be judged for the despicable person she is.

This is just one act in a list of anti-social behaviour and she really is a menace to society.
so your really know what's going on in a woman's head when she has post natal depression do you?? please give us an insight as the experts don't even really know.

I also changed it to no man should not cant if you actually bothered to read it. Where did I mention that the dad has no right when the child is born. You have actually twisted everything I said.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:37
blue_cheese
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There's always an excuse for her behaviour. I seriously think some people think she's like a tragic fallen angel or something.

Imagine if she had killed Mick. It would be like oh don't worry about it Shirley you obviously suffered from post natal depression from people here. Followed by a lot of sympathetic comments and Shirley love. Mick would forgotten. Probably would be saying it was all the baby's fault.
are you serious?? get in the real world. This happens in everyday life so I'm glad EE are highlighting the issue. You see it everyday the Judge saying oh well you was depressed. NOT. They get a jail sentence IF they kill the child. Which this soap character didn't.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:39
blue_cheese
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I agree. Trying to kill a baby, it's awful.

It's never even been said she had post natal depression and if she did it's no excuse. You can't just go around murdering people because you have depression
I agree.

Going by previous things that have happened in real life, people think that if a woman who has post natal depression kills their kids, it makes them less of a horrible person for committing the crime.
wow I hope neither of you get pregnant and go through it. So naïve.

Do some research into Post Natal Depression first.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:41
Sunset Dale
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are you serious?? get in the real world. This happens in everyday life so I'm glad EE are highlighting the issue. You see it everyday the Judge saying oh well you was depressed. NOT. They get a jail sentence IF they kill the child. Which this soap character didn't.
Its hard to get in the real world here, especially with people going on about post natal depression when you have no idea if she even suffered from it. Let's not forget she tried to drown Ben so I see a pattern here. Its suggestive of a dark character trait. An uncontrolled anger that makes her want to kill.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:44
Ell_Ren
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There's always an excuse for her behaviour. I seriously think some people think she's like a tragic fallen angel or something.

Imagine if she had killed Mick. It would be like oh don't worry about it Shirley you obviously suffered from post natal depression from people here. Followed by a lot of sympathetic comments and Shirley love. Mick would forgotten. Probably would be saying it was all the baby's fault.
I disagree. They haven't portrayed it in a malicious way or as attempted murder, they have portrayed it as a moment of madness where Shirley mentality wasn't as it should be and where she has spent her life punishing herself for it, therefore allowing some leeway. I think Shirley's anger issues and behaviour will all stem back to her childhood and how she has never dealt with the demons of her past. Once these have been revealed, she can deal with them, progress as a character and therefore all her a new direction.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:45
Sunset Dale
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wow I hope neither of you get pregnant and go through it. So naïve.

Do some research into Post Natal Depression first.
A large percentage of mothers with this condition don't resort to drowning their children. And again you don't even know if this was behind the drowning. For all you know she could have been distraught that her mother left. Got angry and distraught and tried to drown Mick because he was the reason why her Mother left. You just don't know at this point.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:45
doormouse1
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Even if Shirley's action was PND, it does not excuse her buggering off and abandoning a disabled child and two others, just to chase after men and party down with 'Ev. Or stealing the first day's earnings out of her son's cashbox.

This displays a cold selfishness in the woman that cannot be excused. I know there is a lot of Shirely-love on here from a the same old 'shippers but I think their constant excuses for Shirley's vile behaviour are wearing a little thin and sound more than a little desperate as each new unpleanatness is revealed.

Even if she took Dean's scissors and stabbed him in the eye they would find excuses for her. I personally think the character should be axed.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:47
doormouse1
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I disagree. They haven't portrayed it in a malicious way or as attempted murder, they have portrayed it as a moment of madness where Shirley mentality wasn't as it should be and where she has spent her life punishing herself for it, therefore allowing some leeway.
There can be no leeway for attempting to murder a child.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:49
Sunset Dale
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I disagree. They haven't portrayed it in a malicious way or as attempted murder, they have portrayed it as a moment of madness where Shirley mentality wasn't as it should be and where she has spent her life punishing herself for it, therefore allowing some leeway. I think Shirley's anger issues and behaviour will all stem back to her childhood and how she has never dealt with the demons of her past. Once these have been revealed, she can deal with them, progress as a character and therefore all her a new direction.
So do you think she got the urge to drown her other children and that's why she walked out? Maybe she tried to drown baby Dean.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:51
Ell_Ren
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Even if Shirley's action was PND, it does not excuse her buggering off and abandoning a disabled child and two others, just to chase after men and party down with 'Ev. Or stealing the first day's earnings out of her son's cashbox.

This displays a cold selfishness in the woman that cannot be excused. I know there is a lot of Shirely-love on here from a the same old 'shippers but I think their constant excuses for Shirley's vile behaviour are wearing a little thin and sound more than a little desperate as each new unpleanatness is revealed.

Even if she took Dean's scissors and stabbed him in the eye they would find excuses for her. I personally think the character should be axed.
Bib: I could say the same to the Shirley haters on here who seem to find fault in everything she says or does. She only has to say 'hi' to someone on screen for a thread to be started on here about how 'awful' she is. Its ridiculous. And its also always the same people who make those comments..
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:57
Ell_Ren
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So do you think she got the urge to drown her other children and that's why she walked out? Maybe she tried to drown baby Dean.
I think that what happened with Mick will feed into why she left Kevin and the kids somehow.

There can be no leeway for attempting to murder a child.
I agree, but to me, it wasn't portrayed as 'attempted murder'. It wasn't a premeditated crime, she doesn't remember it properly either, it was a moment of madness. Plus you have to remember that she was a 14 year old child at that time, not an adult and with the situation she was in, she snapped.

Edit: I agree with Vald below, there is nothing to suggest she didn't love Mick prior to or after the incident, she snapped, received no help mentally and it has shaped her life ever since.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:58
vald
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It does seem to have been a moment of madness, she doesn't even remember what happened .One moment she was bathing him and the next he was under the water. 14 years old, abandoned by her abusive mother, a drunken father and two tiny children to look after in a slum flat. Not an excuse, but certainly reason enough for her to crack.

There was no suggestion that she didn't love Mick before or after the incident.

She would not have been sent to prison at 14, but a young person's Psychiatric Unit could have prevented her messing up the rest of her life.
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Old 17-07-2014, 12:12
kitkat1971
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Am I the only one who is bothered about this? Shirley has committed an evil crime, and in many ways it is worse than what Chrissie, Stacey, Ronnie and Janine did. As they all killed evil men, while Shirley attempted to kill an innocent child but luckily Stan saved Mick.

Surely she deserves some sort comeuppance for attempting to kill Mick. And before anyone attempts to throw out the mental illness card, it was established onscreen that Shirley knew exactly what she was doing.

Time to throw this evil woman into prison! Or preferably in a coffin!
Was it established on screen that she knew exactly what she was doing? I thought she said quite the reverse, that she was very young, didn't know how to deal with and bathe a baby and didn't know what she was doing. Also, she might have had undiagnosed PND - nobody even recognosied she'd had a baby so she wasn't getting professional help and her Mum had left. Plus you could argue she was punished - that incident lead to Social Services getting involved and Tina and Mick were taken into care.

I'm far from Shirley's biggest fan (generally think she's a vile excuse for a human being) but I'm more forgiving of that incident than many of of her other transgressions.
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