[stanandjan]

All Tvs now seem to provide an audio output facility as an optical or coaxial socket..
There never seems tp be any means to control that output with-in the TVs' Menus.. so I guess there is an agreed level akin to the long standing Audio Standard LINE output..

So simplifying the situation and examining a location with just a TV and no other equipment.. except an audio amp and speakers to produce sound..it is axiomatic that the sound output level is to be controlled within the audio equipment..

It is hardly feasible that the TV's own loudspeakers will be used in the above situation..and yet..
on my fairly modern Panny..and other Sets I have looked at.. I can find no means to ensure that the TV's speakers do not respond to an accidental Volume operation on the Remote with a resultant cacophony..
until the Volume control is turned down..

I am agreeably surprised that my new Yamaha SoundBar 101 has provision for 'Learning' the Sound Control operations of the Remote..but all to no purpose it seems.. as the TV equally continues to responds to it's Remote and the TV speakers then again intrude into
the arena..
It is hard to believe that this problem has not been foreseen and remedied by now.. as it is hardly a Hi-Tech complicated issue?
I did have an idea...
When the Panny was new..I set it into 'Hotel Mode'.. as this enables my wife to switch on and always find the Sky Box on the Av input..
My hopeful guess is that the Hotel Mode will enable the TV sound to be limited so as not to disturb adjacent rooms...hence possibly limited to almost zero hopefully..
Trouble is I have forgotten the CODE...my excuse is I am an old dodderer anyway..so can anyone help me use the wonderful facility on the Yamaha as it was intended to be used..
and Yes Chris the sound is just about Head height with the Sound bar on top of the set..

[chrisjr]

Have a look through the audio menu of the TV. I would be surprised if the Panasonic did not have an option to turn off the internal speakers separately to any mute button on the remote.

On my LG it has a "Sound Out" section that selects which output option you want to use. If I set it to "Optical/HDMI ARC" the TV speakers are turned off completely and do not respond to either the volume control or the mute button on the TV remote.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Certainly Sony sets usually have the option of turning off the internal speakers, I would expect a Panasonic to have the same.

However, with a modern decent make TV and a modern decent make soundbar - connected via HDMI/ARC with CEC - the set would normally automatically mute the TV's speakers, and automatically re-route the TV remote's volume buttons to work the soundbar.

[ianradioian]

I got fed up with the crappy sound on my flat TV set, so took the back off and disconnected the speaker wiring from its internal speakers and brought the cables out to a little secondhand pair of wharfdale diamonds on the wall either side of the tv- what a revelation! The sound is wonderful now Why they don't fit speaker sockets is beyond me

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianradioian

Why they don't fit speaker sockets is beyond me

COST!!

Back in the days when flat screen TV's were ludicrously expensive they commonly came with speaker sockets (and no one ever used them).

I've fitted external speakers on a number of sets for customers, the difference is amazing.

[gomezz]

On my Samsung TV you can disable the TV speakers by plugging in a pair of headphones. Which actually is not as useful as on my old Panasonic if you want to use wireless headphones as well as still have TV speaker sound. Now have the wireless headphones plugged into the Tape Monitor Out on my AV amp to get the same functionality.

The other thing you can do is use a universal remote and set it up so that the volume buttons control the soundbar then put the original TV remote in a drawer out of the way.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

COST!!

Back in the days when flat screen TV's were ludicrously expensive they commonly came with speaker sockets (and no one ever used them).

I've fitted external speakers on a number of sets for customers, the difference is amazing.

I can't imagine mass producing sets with external speaker sockets would make that much difference to costs.

I can imagine the manufacturers leaving them off to encourage consumers to look at other alternatives for external audio ie. Soundbars/receivers.

I fitted a PC 2.1 system to the TV in the conservatory, the difference is chalk and cheese. I can't remember when I last listened to TV speakers.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

I can't imagine mass producing sets with external speaker sockets would make that much difference to costs.

Nothing to 'imagine', it's a simple plain fact - adding speaker sockets would increase production costs, and historically they have almost NEVER been used.

Many manufacturers are even dropping headphone sockets, as few people use those.

Any reduction they can make in production costs helps them to try and survive, with margins on TV's been incredibly small (and with the top two manufacturers losing money on them).

[Dan Sette]

Presumably it isn't just the cost of the speaker connectors themselves, but the amplifiers required to drive them.

This when reducing the length of a cable by half a meter is used to save manufacturing cost.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Sette

Presumably it isn't just the cost of the speaker connectors themselves, but the amplifiers required to drive them.

There are already amplifiers inside the TV

The sockets on the back would simply switch the internal ones off, and replace them with the external ones.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Nothing to 'imagine', it's a simple plain fact - adding speaker sockets would increase production costs, and historically they have almost NEVER been used.

Many manufacturers are even dropping headphone sockets, as few people use those.

Any reduction they can make in production costs helps them to try and survive, with margins on TV's been incredibly small (and with the top two manufacturers losing money on them).

I could accept that if TV's didn't have a much higher count of connections than ever before - a set of speaker outs would not increase production costs that much, no more than adding an extra two HDMI/ USB connections.

If they are now dropping headphone sockets it looks like they are slowly removing all analogue connections and making the move to digital only connections, that to me would make more sense than connections being dropped because they are almost never used or cost.

How do the manufacturers know what connections are being used/unused?

[Dan Sette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

There are already amplifiers inside the TV

The sockets on the back would simply switch the internal ones off, and replace them with the external ones.

Fair comment, Nigel. I always bow to your, undoubtedly, better knowledge. (I mean this as a true compliment)

You always catch me out when I've posted without thinking first.

Though in my defence I was pondering along the lines low powered internal amps and driving a full blown pair of speakers.

[chrisjr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Sette

Though in my defence I was pondering along the lines low powered internal amps and driving a full blown pair of speakers.

Actually you would be surprised just how little power an amp needs to poke into the speakers at a neighbour friendly volume in the average living room. Probably just single figure watts per speaker. So the TV's built in amplification should be just about up to the job.

The downside though is that if you did want to crank things up to 11 the amps would soon run out of grunt and descend pretty rapidly into gross distortion.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Sette

Fair comment, Nigel. I always bow to your, undoubtedly, better knowledge. (I mean this as a true compliment)

You always catch me out when I've posted without thinking first.

Though in my defence I was pondering along the lines low powered internal amps and driving a full blown pair of speakers.

I've connected a pair of bookshelf speakers from an old hifi to a crt years ago that had speaker outputs, they sounded terrific at reasonable levels, but the tv soon ran out of stream when pushed too hard.

[Dan Sette]

I suppose it depends on the speaker, ease of the load.

In era's gone by when I sold audio quite a few CRT (all that was available in those days) had speaker terminals on the back, for which the manufacturer would sell additional speakers as an accessory.

I can remember the pitiful efforts when connecting up "real world" speakers even like the humble Mission 70.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Sette

Though in my defence I was pondering along the lines low powered internal amps and driving a full blown pair of speakers.

The internal amps are surprisingly good - as I mentioned I've modified a fair few sets for customers, either selling them a pair of bookshelf speakers, or using their own existing speakers. In all cases the sets were plenty loud enough - it's a TV not a disco

Volume (and bass in particular) is all about moving air - the tiny cones in the sets aren't very good at moving air, so the set amplifiers tend to be more powerful than you would think. Because the external speakers have much larger cones, they tend to 'move air' somewhat better, even if they are fairly low efficiency speakers.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon1972

I could accept that if TV's didn't have a much higher count of connections than ever before - a set of speaker outs would not increase production costs that much, no more than adding an extra two HDMI/ USB connections.

But adding sockets people use is much more cost effective.

Quote:

How do the manufacturers know what connections are being used/unused?

From surveys?, by asking people?, by asking the trade? - it's EXTREMELY rare to ever find a set with external speaker sockets with them actually been used. (I think my Plasma has them, but I don't use them either ).

As someone else mentioned, shortening the mains lead by half a metre is a very worthwhile saving for the manufacturer, and not fitting speaker sockets would save many times more than that.

[Deacon1972]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

But adding sockets people use is much more cost effective.

I agree, but there are occasions where leaving sockets on can be just as cost effective - saves on the redesign of the back panel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

From surveys?, by asking people?, by asking the trade? - it's EXTREMELY rare to ever find a set with external speaker sockets with them actually been used. (I think my Plasma has them, but I don't use them either ).

I've never been asked.

[ianradioian]

Well I would recommend anyone to do as I have, I don't want speaker bars or extra remotes or other things plugged in the mains etc. so it's a good solution that really improves the sound.

[stanandjan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Certainly Sony sets usually have the option of turning off the internal speakers, I would expect a Panasonic to have the same.

I eventually found the HOTEL code and set that to Zero...
The TV speakers do sound tinny by themselves but when they are run in Parallel with the Yamaha Sound bar the result is dreadful..and it is all too easy to operate the normal TV sound controls when the sound bar is being used.. hence essential to mute the TV Speakers but then a problem arises..below..


However, with a modern decent make TV and a modern decent make soundbar - connected via HDMI/ARC with CEC - the set would normally automatically mute the TV's speakers, and automatically re-route the TV remote's volume buttons to work the soundbar.

Using the TV audio out..
Muting is a NOGO for my Panasonic when used with the Yamaha ..as only 3 controls are capable of being Learned..Vol up/down and On/Off..
Mind you the same limitation applies to the Top of the Range Panny BlueRay Disc Recorder..[4K capability! ] and it's predecessor the DMR-BWT735 too..and yet The Humax range all provide their own 'Mute' Buttons which work admirably..
Hence in m,y view and reading moans on the many Forums.. Panny do seem to have a strange idea of the reality of a UK Home....and the Surveys of Installers seems a strange one sided affair ..However...

As I cannot fathom how to link to another input from you Nigel I'll reply to that by itself..

[stanandjan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

But adding sockets people use is much more cost effective.



From surveys?, by asking people?, by asking the trade? - .

After the event presumably??
e.g.
The HUmax do have their own MUTEs so who advised Panny to not have such buttons?
At a UK Home.. the Phone rings..someone asks a question from the Kitchen..do not we all press the Mute button??
and
On the Panny DMR-BWT735 the only External Input has dropped the facility for RGB..surely not because it was not hitherto used and Traders reported that fact??
How would traders know of such anyway..and especially asit is used by Humax on their Sets..hence I seldom use my Composite In now so perhaps that it will disappear soon too?? But possibly not ?..
as presumably Panny knew from Traders? of the huge use of s-Video ..which is of course provided..as an External Input. .I have often asked on forums.. to a deafening Silence..
Who on earth uses or even knows of anyone using s-video in the last Decade that might be using a Domestic set..?
Hence I with hard facts do wonder just who advises Pannasonic??
but despite this.. I do read and very often value your inputs Nigel..

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanandjan

Using the TV audio out..

You need to use the HDMI ARC connection, which is what it's for.

Quote:

Muting is a NOGO for my Panasonic when used with the Yamaha ..as only 3 controls are capable of being Learned..Vol up/down and On/Off..
Mind you the same limitation applies to the Top of the Range Panny BlueRay Disc Recorder..[4K capability! ] and it's predecessor the DMR-BWT735 too..and yet The Humax range all provide their own 'Mute' Buttons which work admirably.

But incorrectly - altering the volume or muting at source is a VERY poor idea, and just leads to confusion and problems for customers. I see Humax have now started doing it properly on the latest boxes?, or is that just FreeTimes influence?.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanandjan

After the event presumably??
e.g.
The HUmax do have their own MUTEs so who advised Panny to not have such buttons?

Common sense and all other manufacturers who do it properly

Humax seem the exception to this, but seem to have little idea about remote control design or functionality - luckily FreeTime has greatly improved it

[bobcar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

But incorrectly - altering the volume or muting at source is a VERY poor idea, and just leads to confusion and problems for customers. I see Humax have now started doing it properly on the latest boxes?, or is that just FreeTimes influence?.

I agree it's a bad idea and one advantage of using a universal remote is that you can reprogram the PVR volume controls to work the TV or sound system instead.

I disagree about the Freetime (Freesat) influence being good though as they make some strange EPG decisions.

[Nigel Goodwin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobcar

I disagree about the Freetime (Freesat) influence being good though as they make some strange EPG decisions.

But it's a massive improvement on the Humax decisions though