Too late. I've gone and done it.

*Takes heavy 'Who list laws' book from it's scared alter (after surviving the hall of mirrors and the chessboard floor of doom) blows dust off it* ...nope nothing in there about it chaps.

Rose series one stands....Hurrah.

I thought I read somewhere once that even if they had kept Caroline John on, she wouldn't have stayed much longer because she was pregnant. Not sure if the production team knew that either at the time she was axed.

I'm open to correction but sure that I've read that fact before......

I understand that Caroline was informed that she wouldn't be returning for Season 8 before the production team knew that she was pregnant and she subsequently thought she had somehow not cut it in the role. Happily, when she rather nervously attended her first convention years later the fans let her know exactly what they thought of Liz Shaw by giving her a huge ovation!

Quite right too. Great actress and by all accounts a lovely person.

My foggy memory is telling me the producers thought that having an intellectual companion did not work. Something about being an equal to the Doctor or some such tosh. I have never understood that premise. Surely even the smartest person on earth, which Liz Shaw was not, would be no equal to the Doctors intellect. I think the producers simply changed their minds mid/end series and wanted the 'damsel in distress' type companion back. Enter Joe Grant.

I'm pretty certain Ive remembered that wrong.. but..hey ho.

Seems to me his own rules should have allowed for Katarina, since she was with the Doctor in the TARDIS in two stories.

I think it was a mixture of both these posts. They wanted to axe Liz because they wanted someone who could ask The Doctor questions to convey info to the audience. As Liz was as clever as the Doctor, she didn't need to ask questions, therefore no info for the viewer. I don't like Season 7 much, but neither Liz or her lack of questions was never a worry for me, though I wish she'd had a bit more humour throughout rather than just in her last story.

But as CO said, they didn't know Caroline John was pregnant when they took that decision. So her time on the show would have been limited anyway and maybe she would have been able to do a couple of stories, which would have been great, then they could have given her a proper goodbye.

There again, I couldn't ever imagine Liz in Season 8 at all, such was the change of style in the show.

To cover your points:

Of course K-9 was a companion. He is listed as a companion in every single listing that I have ever seen besides this one. He traveled with The Doctor and rescued The Doctor I don't know how many times. He served in the secondary companion (and sometimes in the primary companion) slot on many, many occasions. The very first spin-off show (which the author of the piece acknowledges, but fails to list by title) was K-9 and Company, not Sarah Jane Smith and company. It was designed as a vehicle to use K-9 off of the main show since he was so popular with the younger children.

Jamie was quite interesting and quite good. That was how a companion worked back then (and probably even today); if the companion was a good fit and they worked, then they stayed. If the companion was not a good one, then they were killed off four episodes into the next serial (like Katerina (sp?), the handmaid from Greece) or that guy in the new series whom The Doctor unceremoniously dumped back home with the finger-snap portal in his head. The good characters/companions stayed around a long time like Jamie, Sarah Jane and K-9. The bad ones were dumped like Kamelion and the aforementioned others. Thus, longevity, is a great indication of how good a companion he was. He was even brought back at least three times, I think. He deserves the high spot held by Rory "I had to be killed off an replaced by an Automaton before I became interesting" Williams.

As to your last point, that is extremely hard to debate. I would argue that the current companions are merely walking plot points ("The most important woman in the universe", "The Impossible Girl", "The Girl Who Waited", etc.) as opposed to three-dimensional characters. However, that is literally being debated on another thread, so I won't cover it too much here. However, I would argue that the frenetic pace and fewer episodes per season mean that mean that much of the longer term character development of the companions (such as Ian, Barbara, Steven, Jamie, Sarah Jane, etc.) are simply not given time in the new show. Yes, gimmicks are cool for a bit "Hey, I am The Last Centurion" or "I have helped The Doctor throughout all time in all of his incarnations every time and everywhere", but, in the end, they are just gimmicks. They are like the person that you go out on a couple of dates with because they look good, but, in the end, you find out that they are dull and lifeless, boring and insipid because, thanks to their looks, they never had to develop a personality or any character. I would much rather have character development and three-dimensional companions than the gimmicks, tricks and plot hooks which (especially from Moffat) have dominated the show for the last five years.

While she started out as Amy Pond, once she and Rory married, her name changed to Amy Williams. You can see that quite clearly in the episode where she is signing divorce papers; she signs it Amy Williams.

Despite the fact that The Doctor continues to call her by her maiden name (he seemed to have a strange and hyper idealized focus on Amy, the young girl, as evidenced by his vision of her as he was dying some 1,000 years later), that does not actually change her name. They are not, as The Doctor liked to call them, "The Ponds"; they are "Rory and Amy Williams".


Edit:

And, as you can see very clearly here on the tombstone from The Angels Take Manhattan:

http://www.impossiblepodcasts.com/20...manhattan.html

Amelia Williams

Only legally. The Doctor doesn't have a focus on Amelia the little girl - I think he literally doesn't see the difference. To him, Amelia Pond is completely indistinguishable from Amy Williams.

I think ozark1 was just having a bit of fun.

I'm now wavering on this point. I will completely agree that he was a 'proper' character, but don't think he often operated in the same capacity as a companion. In most of his appearances, he seemed to function as an exposition device and substitute sonic screwdriver.


To be fair, that was the whole point of Rory. I would argue that he was interesting before (although completely wet), but he at least went through a plot-driven development of character.

Which brings me to the rest of your post - I agree, it's been debated many times before in many other places, so I won't labour it.

But I do think that perhaps you need to look beyond the superficial trappings of the funny taglines and plot gimmicks to the actual character underneath. The Impossible Girl is what the Doctor calls Clara, it's not who she is. It's no more a description of the character than 'mouthy temp from Chiswick' encapsulates Donna's personality and development. And Rose was about as blank a slate as they come, which was perfect for its time.

Classic characters tend to settle into the same rut as their predecessors and successors - despite starting with an interesting background, they tend to be used the same way. If there's one companion, they will generally be vulnerable and ask a lot of questions, if there's a second they will often be a bit gung-ho and rush into situations. Sometimes they're they other way around. It's a really interesting companion that is able to break out of that mould.

Moffat's companion characters have properly realised dimensions - and the little character moments are superb - but perhaps it's been made difficult to see the wood for the trees.

Oh, aye, probably. It is just a button of mine. LOL!

Great points. I am glad that you are reconsidering K-9.


As to the new companions, it used to be that companions joined the show, joined The Doctor for some adventures and then left (usually because they fell in love, returned home or died). They grew as people while they were with him, but they didn't become all powerful beings.

Nowadays, it seems that The Doctor's companions must all change and save the universe on a grand scale. Rose's "Bad Wolf" where she became a Goddess, Donna's "Doctor/Donna" save the Universe, "Most important woman in The Universe" Goddess deal, Clara's "Impossible Girl", saves The Doctor throughout all time and space etc., etc.. seems insane after a while. Does The Doctor just have the knack for finding the most amazing women in The Universe and then pushing them to some unlimited potential? Once maybe. Twice is coincidence. But now, it's just absurd.

I want the companions to be people. I want them to be like me running through a strange adventure and growing as a result, but not becoming immortal (Jack) or Omnipotent Gods (Donna, Rose) no matter how briefly. I don't want them to become legends (Martha, Rory & Micky (on the other side)). I don't think that any of the old companions did any of these things. They were all just people. They traveled with The Doctor, they grew and then they left. They never became ultra-fantastic in the process.

That is why I like Wilfred so much as my favorite companion from this century. He is a good man who travels (briefly) with The Doctor, does well, and then returns home still the same man, just a little better. Not immortal, not a God and not a legend. He is just a wonderful, kind, old man. He is the closest thing that we have to the classic companions in modern Who. That is another reason that I am so sad that he was left off of this list.

But did they, really? I could see that argument for Romana, Leela, Ace, even Adric - that kind of 'raw edge needing refined' was built into their character from the start. But what about the rest - did Mel change her outlook on life? Did Tegan become a more-rounded person as a result of his travels with the Doctor?


He does have a knack, but it's not for finding these people. It's for stumbling into the sort of cosmic forces that do that to a person. As the Doctor would say, everyone has that unlimited potential, but not everyone gets a chance to express it.

Travelling with the Doctor, and doing the sort of things that the Doctor does, would make any above-average Joe become a legend.

I know this is simply one guys view on rating each one, but there a 1 or 2 (or so), that I go "what the??"

-e.g. Victoria (12) so high against Zoe so low (30) -? Actually, I did find Zoe quite irritating & a bit of a young smart aleck but 30 was a bit on the low side. Also I thought most fans who know all the characters fairly well would have given a higher ranking to Romana I & Harry. Rory was not that much better than Harry, & at times the actor didn't really seem to doing the part justice.

I'm just trying to decide whether I should set up a thread linking to the "Definitive Ranking Of "Doctor Who" Villains"

Well, Johnny, if Tegan became a he as a result of travelling with the Doctor, I'd say that was one hell of a life changing experience!

Shan't bother looking at the list in that case.

At the World Tour last night they had a Nu Who Companion montage and she by far got the biggest cheers

I'm annoyed.

This.



But at least Dodo didn't come last (for once).

I think Donna had a terrific arc hence am happy with her ranking.

Don't get me started on Ace though...Sheesh !

I don't know about Tegan. I haven't seen her full arc as of yet. As for Mel, I don't know and I don't care. I find her as amusing and fun as a thousand glass splinters in my eye. In other words, I absolutely can't stand her character. I don't think that the Sixth Doctor died by accident; I think that he saw his opportunity for suicide and threw himself head first into the console unit just when they were hit in order to get away from the exercise bike, carrot juice and that ingratiating voice.

Anyways, I think that my point still stands. There is nobody with whom to identify in the new series. Nearly every companion becomes a superhero, a legend or a God. The only exceptions that I can think of are Wilfred and the fat guy with the baby whose name I can't think of right now. I can do what Ian did in the old show. Or Barbara. Or Steven. Or Vicki or Jamie or Sarah Jane or Ace. I can identify with these characters. I will never be able to do what Rose did or what Doctor/Donna did or what Clara did or what Jack did. It's just not possible. It used to be normal people doing good things, brave things in insanely unlikely situations (the science-fiction aspect). Now, it is normal people doing insanely unlikely things in insanely unlikely situations. Every companion has to be so much more. So infinitely much more. There is a disconnect there with which I can't identify. I am supposed to identify with the companion. I am supposed to go "That could be me!". But I know that it is simply not possible in the modern series. It is entertaining, but I have no one with which to identify (except Wilfred) in terms of companions.

And I know that this is a personal beef with the show and that it is only from my point of view, but it exists very poignantly for me.

I like Ace and Adric and I don't get why nu-who companions are on the list
I do agree that now many are just gonna save the universe when it used to be varying stakes

Yes, you would. If you were put into the situations that those characters were put in.

It's not the characters you a beef with, really, is it? It's the things the character is put through. Rose didn't become the Bad Wolf because she was a god, or born to be a god, but because of what she was willing to do to save the Doctor. I'd like to think you were also capable of that.

Rose was always an ordinary person. An ordinary person living an extraordinary life. The only difference is that the old series seemed to think you could just leave that behind and go back to being ordinary.

I disagree as the Classic Who didn't deal with what the companions did or how they felt after they left the Doctor
Most would wave farewell or leave due to being sick of the deaths or whichever reason and that was mainly that and we'd be off with the next companion/Doctor
Liz Shaw didn't even get a onscreen farewell