It's not a dressing down, it's sheer bewilderment at the fact that people think they are being hard done by when an artist won't dance to their tune.

Maybe I got a bit too heated and for that I apologise, I just hate the idea that these concerts are getting picky pains (not aimed at any one person in particular) being entitled when they are, in my opinion, a really special gift to Kate's fans, the ones who really care about her music beyond just owning a copy of The Whole Story.

I just don't think these concerts were ever aimed at the casual fan and while I sympathise with you when it comes to general disappointment, some of the attitude in this thread and elsewhere is too much.

I consider it a total waste of money if I go to see a favourite band/singer and they trot out a greatest hits set. I always thought that the whole idea of going to see a live set was that you get to hear new, unreleased stuff, otherwise you might as well sit at home and listen to the records.

I used to go all over the place to see The Cure, but I hated it when they got to a part of the set where they trotted out The Walk and Let's Go To Bed, etc. It just seemed like sheer laziness, as if they couldn't be bothered to rehearse anything new.

Quite frankly, anybody who felt cheated by Kate Bush not singing Wuthering Heights is an idiot.

I don't agree. I think the point of going to see an artist is to hear songs performed live which is a totally different experience from hearing them on the record. I like to hear some songs that are hits and well known mixed in with new songs and lesser known tracks. If I like an artist I tend to like most of the material, the hits and the less well known stuff so I like a mix. There is something exciting about hearing the whole audience sing along with a song they love and know.
I don't know many artists that perform nothing but new unreleased stuff, not even Kate Bush. Most of the songs she did are released on previous records and although she didn't do Wuthering Heights she did do some of her hit songs in the first part of the show.
I think a lot depends on the type of artist also. Kate Bush can get away with doing more less known stuff because she is not really an artist geared towards the charts. But with artists that are more pop driven and have numerous hits, people do want to hear at least some of the hits, maybe not every one but at least some of the hits.
I think cheated is too strong a word, but people do have a right to feel disappointed if Kate Bush or anyone else doesn't do their most iconic song. Kate Bush or anyone else has the right to perform whatever they want, but people have a right to be disappointed if they don't hear their favourite song.

Oh, absolutely. I'm not disputing that for a moment. It's the entitled, demanding attitudes I'm rallying against.

I really wish This Woman's Work was in the setlist, I actually did think she'd include it abiet maybe a performance similar to the newer Director's Cut version. So that's my own personal disappointment when it comes to a setlist I otherwise think is great (and works really well - I made a playlist of the songs Kate does in the show and they all fit together nicely).

brave? he was a multimillionaire rock star playing music. he wasn't going to war


i'm not so sure about this. as the hardcore fans will have purchased everything, yet the casual fans won't have, so when they hear the music on tv, radio or in movies they may buy it. and that will help keep her going


she sang it at the rehearsal though. her voice is noticably different though. but she also rerecorded a lot of her work not that long ago for directors cut. i'm sure she could sing those songs no problem, even if a key change is required


the different set list thing is fine if you tour a lot, as many fans will have heard the hits before and will hear them again. in this case the vast majority of her fanbase have never seen her live at all. i know if i see some of my favourite acts i get bored when the same hits are played and love it when rare and unreleased material is played, but the regular punters get bored at that stage and the crowd reaction is noticeably different when hits are played

wrong. it is


it's still part of their job. choosing not to play live is a different thing altogether. howeve bowie has played live shows for decades, and may play live again (regardless of what you may have heard). he's also done his tin machine not playing hits shows, but had plenty of hits shows before and afterwards, so a very different situation to someone touring for only the second time in their life, and after a 35 year break

if you go to a peter gabriel show i would expect peter gabriel songs. if i went to a kate bush show i'd expect kate bush songs. i wouldn't necesarily expect peter gabriel to play songs from a band he left about 35 years ago and was in for about 5 years. when it's a solo artist and they choose not to play work from a previous band it's a different case to a solo artist not playing their own best known works

different people will have different reasons. however the reason kate is succesful and famous is down to the fans buying her music. and it's those early hits she isn't playing that is the reason why she was able to make her following albums and subsequently play the shows she's doing now. the fans are essentially her customers

artists voices change over years, which is why they change songs to different keys so they can sing them, so no excuses there


she played WH at the rehearsal. it's only one song out of a 3 hour show. whilst she didn't say it was a hits show, similarly it didn't say the hits wouldn't be played. there is a reasonable expectation to see an artist play hits to a show unless it's specified otherwise. especially on a "comeback tour"


that's great, but whilst some may love the set, others may be dissapointed

neither do you.

fans are a bunch of different people with different views. some may be fairweather and others hardcore, and like different things. what he said sums up things pretty well really. the hardcore fans would go regardless of what happens, but the majority of fans which are the casual fans, will most likely prefer to hear the best work aka the hits all night, and that is pretty much the same for any musical artist

i disagree entirely. i remember shows from some artists much more than others they've done as i loved the shows where they played their best work and was bored when they played stuff i wasn't so familiar with. it's a music BUSINESS, the bands sell tickets by playing stuff people want to hear, and that's the popular stuff


some people would prefer to hear the music from the artist, rather than see visuals. music is the key part of a music concert


those people did those things a lot more than kate put on live shows however. it's not a good comparison

i imagine you only know a tiny percentage of fans and most fans in reality want to hear the hits, and only the hardcore will enjoy whatever is played

tours are also a way of making money. if an artist plays live regularly then it's fair enough they will want to try something different and play something other than hits, and fans will usually love it. but when its only the second tour, and after a 35 year break it's a different situation. people have been waiting decades to hear her hits and they are unlikely to hear them, and they have no idea if they ever will hear them, or if she will ever do more live shows in future

the tickets aren't exactly cheap, so it's a fair comment for those to pay so much to expect the songs they want to hear, and if those songs are hits and the most well known and popular tracks, and they aren't played, then it's surely understandable they may be upset. or don't you get that?

if you go all over the place to see a band play all the time then it's understandable you may get bored hearing the same stuff all the time, but those who only go that one time will love to hear the hits. those are the majority of people, you are the minority and you aren't forced to go to so many shows

in this case there is little scope for people to attend more than one show or ever see any gigs past october

Why do you act like you can speak for everyone? Also, you'd create an argument in an empty room wouldn't you?

The beauty of Kate's music is it appeals to so many different people for different reasons. Some will want nothing but hits, others will be happy with almost anything. From the overall feedback from the first two nights of Kate's comeback performances it seems like the vast majority of people are happy. Kate has always done things her own way and it's a big part of why I love her. If you and others can't deal with it, that's not her problem. You seem totally unwilling to conceed that Kate is just not like other artists in terms of conforming and not just when it comes to gigs.

Going off the set list that was posted earlier these concerts would be wasted on me, even though I really like some of her songs. Like you say, this is really aimed at her 'hardcore fans', rather than people like me who would rather hear her perform her best songs.

You do like to argue with everyone don't you? lol

What if Kate did this at The National Theatre? Would you be complaining that she didn't include hits? I mean essentially this is what could have been done in the Olivier theatre. It's the perfect kind of thing. It's not just a concert. It's theatre. It's art. It's storytelling. She had an idea years ago to expand The Ninth Wave as it told a story. she has created a show like no other. One that combines different styles, sounds, mediums and her music. I think it's very clever. It's doing something new and creating an experience for the audience.

Are you going? Everyone I know loved it. They said it was amazing, fantastic and epic. Everyone will have some disappointment that a song wasn't played but to slate the show purely for that is rather narrow minded and ignorant.

As I said. There is more to Kate Bush than Wuthering Heights or Babooshka. There is an array of music. This could also be the gateway to her performing more and doing the older material. We should be grateful that her son Bertie convinced her to do it. She has been scared for years about returning to the stage. Most close to her have said that. She apparently lost 2 stone before the concerts.

no, not at all. in fact the opposite which you would notice if you bother to read what I say


no


which is pretty much the same for any other artist, and what I've been pointing out throughout the thread


again, this is another key point I've been making through the thread


it may seem like that to you, but not like that to others


again you are wrong. it's pretty obvious. that's the reason why some people are unhappy, as they were expecting something different

i do know a lot of Kate fans, there has been a lot of discussion about what people expected/wanted from the show. i would have loved to have heard Wuthering Heights, which could still be included, she has rehearsed it.

But, Kate named the show Before The Dawn, she didnt say it was a Greatest Hits Show.
I was there on the first night, the main part of the show was based on a song cycle,it was amazing, the fact we got some other songs thrown in before this part and in the Encore, was a bonus for me.
what makes you think the majority of fans were casual fans?

Especially when fans have literally been clamoring for tickets. A casual fan wouldn't be flying from Aus, USA to see her. Fans are still desperately trying to get hold of tickets on the facebook fan pages

no I don't


the venue is almost irrelevant, however if she was to play in a very small venue clearly aimed at the most hardcore fans, such as Ronnie scotts, then there may be less expectation as to what is played. however she has put on several nights in a reasonable sized venue, with no word as to what would happen at the time of the ticket sales. also I'm not complaining, I'm just discussing


although, not what many of the ticket buyers expected


yes, I have my tickets


let's get it clear that I'm not slating the show. I've only heard the first show so far. I've yet to experience the full show and until then i'll reserve my own judgement. who knows if the show will change and she plays more of the songs I'd like to hear.

however from the people I know who went, the harcore fans loved it, but the fairweather fans were disappointed. in fact one person said they actually hated it, and the reason was because they had high expecations to hear certain songs and they weren't played. I expect there will be a number of people will similar expectations who will be disappointed. personally I'd prefer to hear more well known material and I don't care if there are any visuals or theatrics, the music is the element I'm looking forward to


I think most people are aware there is more to her than those albums, but she only has a few albums and is missing tracks from her first few albums. she's still playing a lot of old material. she's playing half of ariel which is over 10 years old, so it's not like she's playing new material, and a lot of the material is 20-30 years old, so it's not like she's made a simple decision to not play old stuff and just play new stuff, instead she's cut off material just a few years before the material she is playing. and a choice of playing so much from ariel over more well known material is going to be considered unusual by some and result in some people being unhappy of that choice over other material

bowie has been mentioned a few times, but he toured extensively for decades so fans had a lot of options regarding his shows. even when he played something like low, he would still play a lot of his hits too. when he did shows where he avoided the hits, he did it under a band name so people knew it wasn't going to be the bowie show

i'll take your word on that. no reason to doubt you. but you don't know all her fans. you only really know a small number of them


most tours by most artists aren't called "greatest hits" tours or have any mention of hits in the tour name or on the poster. but what do most artists play during most of their tours?

so a tour called "below the dawn" may have some special subtle meaning to her hardcore fans, or may not, but for normal people like fairweather fans it has no meaning or suggestion at all. if it was a secret code to hardcore fans as to what is going to be played and it tells the hardcore fans that few hits will be played, it's not going to communicate the message well to normal fairweather fans who wouldn't have a clue what that meant, and would have a reasonable expectation of hearing her play her most well known material for the first time in 35 years


the majority of fans of most artists are casual fans. the hardcore fans only make up a small number. when it comes to a well known and big selling artist the difference between the two sets usually increases. a casual fan will buy an artists music when the want to, maybe go to a show if they can get tickets and they play in their vicinity, but they won't spend every day on a fansite of that artist and collect every last Japanese 7 inch single and related artist album etc. there was a lot of hype with this particular tour, meaning people get caught up in the hype and buy tickets just to see an influential artist play a rare live set. there seem to be a few people on these forums who consider themselves hardcore fans yet weren't able to obtain tickets for example

and on that note, had it been clearer as to what was going to be played, or not played, perhaps less casual fans would have bought tickets, and more of the hardcore fans could have got a chance instead, and they may have appreciated the show more than those casual fans who did get tickets. it's a shame that some will see such a show and be disappointed by it when others who would really love to go will miss out instead

might be better selling your ticket

Originally Posted by unique:
“brave? he was a multimillionaire rock star playing music. he wasn't going to war”

Brave in the Musical sense i meant as well you might have known.


The word "Brave in a music forum" usually means an artist doing something they might not usually have been expected to do. A bit like Kate Bush is doing now.

The main body of the show won't change. The beginning and the encore might change but two performances in and it hasn't. It might do in the future.

I think the venue is relevant to a degree. If it was announced for National Theatre then most would automatically assume a theatrical performance. But then looking at her 79 tour, that was quite visual and theatrical anyway. Kate has always been quite theatrical so it's not really a surprise. Kate also has a connection to The Apollo. In a sense it's almost like returning home.

As I have said before, she is telling a story. Aerial and Ninth Wave both tell a story and they accompany each other quite well. To throw in random songs amongst it would be jarring and not fit the narrative she has planned.

She has no duty to play the "hits", she is however putting on something quite special. Also, not to nit pick, but Aerial isn't even 10 years old yet

Plus she has already performed some of the hits live, in 79. Whilst it was a long time ago, it would be like repeating herself if she stuck to those songs. She has other beautiful work that needs to be played live. There are some classics in there, but then everyone has different favourites.