There is quite a long interview with Carrie about CFA in todays Sun.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2...20807,,00.html

It's a good interview. But her view of Edith is strange:

"The biggest voice is Kim’s but the person with the most vocal identity, the one whose records you’d want to buy, is Edith. You just know her voice immediately.

"... with Edith, you’d want to put her album on. It’s that kind of stuff.

"She wouldn’t be interested in it, but she’s the only one who could have a career in music."

Doing what? Singing other people's songs in a fairly standard style?

I can see her point about Kim ("Kim would be brilliant at musical theatre. She could go straight into that and do eight shows a week and her voice wouldn’t tire. It’s bright and really easy to listen to.") And what she says about Debra.

But I don't see why she says that about Edith.

Can anyone suggest an artist who might be similar to what Carrie seems to think Edith would be? Presumably someone you'd listen to because you "know their voice" rather than because of the songs, and who would have a long career?

Another odd bit of Carrie reasoning:

"But it’s still very hard in this country. There’s never been a voting programme where a black person has won.

"Alex Parks won, who was a girl and a lesbian, but we still have a way to go.

"It proves that people who vote on these shows are not the same ones who go out and buy records. That is shown with someone like Michelle McManus from Pop Idol.

"They get the votes because the TV loves the idea of someone like Michelle but people don’t go out and buy the album."

But no, Michelle doesn't prove that. The people who vote might also be the ones who buy records, if they just didn't want to buy Michelle's album for some reason. Perhaps it wasn't very good. I can remember that she had a single, but nothing about it. Probably it was a forgettable song that sold only because people knew her from tv.

Carrie seems to believe that singing ability should translate into sales. But why, if the songs aren't good? Whereas a song that appeals to the public will sell even if the singing isn't great. Rachel Stevens, Kylie, and many others have proved that again and again.

Another Carrie favourite is Mel C, but "She’s tarnished with the Spice Girl brush so much."

Isn't it the other way around? Without the Spice Girl link, Mel C's career wouldn't exist; and her career's declined as the memory of the Spices fades. Now, she needs some good songs. Singing ability won't save her.

(Yes, I'm awake with nothing better to do than pick on Carrie's interview. Soz. )

The trouble is we judge these people in the context of the Academy. In comparison to the people they are competing against people like Alex and Lemar seem fantastic.

Once they have to compete with real popstars they suddenly seem very average and it's a big struggle for them. Couple that with the fact that they are very tightly controlled by their management companies and it's hard for their personalities to come to the fore. Lemar was an interesting character in FA but in his popstar incarnation he is so diplomatic it is deathly dull.

They also have the problem that the real top notch songwriters just aren't interested in working with them. So they just get the hacks churning out derivative crap for them.

It worked for Alex Parks....

Edith actually sounds a little like Alex Parks, except Edith is way cooler

Yes but if you saw it you would have supported Edith wouldn't you? Carrie is actually saying the same thing that the 3 judges and David also all said. Tthey all used the same words even. Several of the students said it too - both in the academy and in their expulsion interviews. David actually spent a long conversation with Edith putting the idea to her that she could really do it. All of which tilts the balance a little in favour of you not seeing what they see rather than Carrie seeing something that no one else sees.

I thought this thread was going to be about another CFA taking place in a hotter country!

The first point is sadly true - its true of practically any reality series you mention. Most go early and those that stay don't make it to the last 2. - even if as in Pop Idol they are arguably the best people there. In music shows there may be a reason in some cases as Paris and Simone sang in distinctive genres with limited appeal but on other shows iit may well be that the face didn't fit.

The second point is probably true - some explanation is needed how some people can win Pop Idol or come second in FA and then be unable to convert their votes into Album sales. No one knew what was on their albums and they ought to have had enough peole interested enough to find out - but it just didn't happen. Possible explanations include that their voters were voting for something other than their singing or their voters were not album buyers or the media shunned them because of being from reality TV, but some explanation is needed..


Having a great song helps but lots of mediocrity does well.The real issue may be who gets heard and radio play lists seem to have more to do with corporate power than quality of output.

Mel C has the quality. What Carrie says is right though. Young buyers will think of the Spice girls as yesterday's group and not want to be tainted. Older fans will think of her in Spice Girl terms and move on after a while. Its not surprising that none of the girls who left massively succesful bands seem to be doing well despite signs that there has been a lot of investment in their new albums and the fact that they are probably as good as the US singers dominating radio play.

So did I - I was quite looking forward to it!!

Let me put it this way: Would you buy an album of cover versions of familiar songs, sung by Edith? Remember that it's supposed to be Edith's having "the most vocal identity" that makes her "the one whose records you’d want to buy", because "you just know her voice immediately."

So you had better say "yes". Yes, you'd rush right out and buy it.

But it would be a bit weird, surely, if such a record was a hit and critics fawned all over it. Or is Edith supposed to be the new Joss Stone?

(Of course, the logic of "you want to buy because you know her voice" is faulty. Surely you'd have to also like the voice. Yet Carrie doesn't mention that, or the quality of the songs. It's all about "vocal identity" to her. But then, she is a singing coach, after all.)
Last edited by Veri : 16-03-2005 at 03:50

Yes, some explanation, and you've listed several plausible ones; but Carrie thinks the fate of Michelle McManus's album proves that one particular explanation is correct: the people who voted for her don't buy records.

I think there's probably something to that. Maybe younger people who vote on such shows don't buy albums, as opposed to singles.

But was Michelle's single one that would make people want to buy the album? I don't think it was. And she didn't follow up with other hits. (At least I don't remember any.)

I think Alex Parks and Mel C are now in a similar situation.

They were able to go a certain distance because of something in their past: such winning a reality show or being in the Spice Girls. But to keep going, they need more than singing ability. They need good songs. (Mel C had some for a while, then seemed to lose her way a bit.)

It's true that mediocre songs can do well, but there has to be some reason for it, such as ... they're by a cute boy band and girls like them. Michelle, Alex, and Mel had an external-to-the-music reason at the start, but not one that can continue to save them.

But, as you note:
The typical formula these days is: good-looking singer(s) + good songwriters = a series of hits. There are many examples. Rachel Stevens, Kylie, Girls Aloud, Britney, Christina, Avril Lavigne, Atomic Kitten, ...

"Cred", often obtained by being able to write songs, helps a bit (Avril, Sugababes?, 1/4th of All Saints), even if the hits are often written largely by others. (Alex Parks needs this big time. If her next album looks like it others deserve most of the songwriting credit, she's in trouble.)

Good singing can also help, but is not required and isn't enough without a good song.