He seems to start every one of his speeches with a put down prepared for someone at the end of it. If you've got nothing nice to say don't say anything.
James Jordan- - Alpha male or insecure and mentally frail? A critique
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Originally Posted by molliepops:
“They all knew they would be living with strangers but as has been said so many times Gary seems to need care none of them would have thought they would need to tend to a man who is clearly damaged. I blame the producers, and his family really for allowing him to do this show I don't think he should have been put in this position, people seem to be laughing at him not with him most of the time.”
“They all knew they would be living with strangers but as has been said so many times Gary seems to need care none of them would have thought they would need to tend to a man who is clearly damaged. I blame the producers, and his family really for allowing him to do this show I don't think he should have been put in this position, people seem to be laughing at him not with him most of the time.”
You see I don't see it quite that way. I think that just because someone is different, they shouldn't be excluded. I would hate to share a house with someone like Dee, for eg. She can feed herself and hasn't flashed or stripped off, for eg, in order to get attention, (not that Gary has done this, I firmly believe that the dropped trousers was a genuine medical reason). But she's loud, obnoxious and can stir an argument at the drop of a hat. I would go stir crazy being with her.
Gary on the other hand, is eccentric and awkward sometimes but he's harmless and has a lot to say that makes sense and brings a happy atmosphere for all. If they're laughing at them, then more fool them. I'm laughing with him and find him fascinating. I don't see him as needy and having to have extra care to the extent that all the house have to look after him. If they couldn't just show concern over his knee a few days ago and used that to smite him again, it says far more about them than it does him.
Another way to look at it is this..if they do see him as needing extra help and support and that he is damaged, then it speaks volumes about how disgusting they are to him, even beyond how they are. Knowingly treating a person so badly when you know they are vulnerable is beyond vile.
Originally Posted by fifitrixibelle:
“Thanks for your forgiveness..................I rarely use the term, but for him it's perfect, a succinct way of saying he is an empty vessel, a knob full of bluster and self importance, a pathetic man who likes to hide behind the idea that he is a clever WUM so he can get his spiteful jibes in an effort to humiliate whoever he feels threatened by.......the fact that he neither has the intelligence or natural wit to pull it off just makes him look even more ridiculous and sad.
Personally I don't understand why any viewer would 'not turn against him' because of other's views.............no matter how 'inane'...............much rather watch and form my own opinion, why would any one else's view or comments impact on that??.....isn't that rather pointless and lazy?”
“Thanks for your forgiveness..................I rarely use the term, but for him it's perfect, a succinct way of saying he is an empty vessel, a knob full of bluster and self importance, a pathetic man who likes to hide behind the idea that he is a clever WUM so he can get his spiteful jibes in an effort to humiliate whoever he feels threatened by.......the fact that he neither has the intelligence or natural wit to pull it off just makes him look even more ridiculous and sad.
Personally I don't understand why any viewer would 'not turn against him' because of other's views.............no matter how 'inane'...............much rather watch and form my own opinion, why would any one else's view or comments impact on that??.....isn't that rather pointless and lazy?”
I agree with this. I have never understood the pathetic response of saying because someone likes xx, or dislikes so and so it has put me off them/ made me like them more mentallity. Form an opinion and decide for yourself that'e the real world don't be lead by someone else thoughts.
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“I don't seem to see HMs like many people, I haven't ever worshipped one or thought them incapable of being a human being with flaws. I look at the flaws and decide if I can like them despite their problems, is there a nice person in there trying to get out? I think James there is a nice person in there he struggles to express that and it comes out a bit wrong. Whereas another HM is pretty nasty and I think nothing nice inside him either. If either win it won't be good for them, but I would rather see James win than some others as at least he has been himself and entertained me.”
“I don't seem to see HMs like many people, I haven't ever worshipped one or thought them incapable of being a human being with flaws. I look at the flaws and decide if I can like them despite their problems, is there a nice person in there trying to get out? I think James there is a nice person in there he struggles to express that and it comes out a bit wrong. Whereas another HM is pretty nasty and I think nothing nice inside him either. If either win it won't be good for them, but I would rather see James win than some others as at least he has been himself and entertained me.”
I hope you feel the same way if someone is treating you the way James treat some hms in the real world.
Originally Posted by Heyyouoverthere:
“I agree with this. I have never understood the pathetic response of saying because someone likes xx, or dislikes so and so it has put me off them/ made me like them more mentallity. Form an opinion and decide for yourself that'e the real world don't be lead by someone else thoughts.”
“I agree with this. I have never understood the pathetic response of saying because someone likes xx, or dislikes so and so it has put me off them/ made me like them more mentallity. Form an opinion and decide for yourself that'e the real world don't be lead by someone else thoughts.”
James is a ****, that's a fact, whatever your thoughts on any other housemates surely?
don't like Gary, James is a ****, Garys's fans are annoying, James is still a ****, etc
Originally Posted by ForGodsSake:
“Give me the link you have to 24 hour live feed please.”
“Give me the link you have to 24 hour live feed please.”
I was going to highlight the same point but I can't be assed!
Neither. James isn't an alpha male -- I don't think the "alpha male" idea is even helpful in thinking about James, even if we could get past the problem that "alpha male" can be understood in at least two very different ways -- and I don't think he's mentally frail either. (When I first caught a glimpse of the thread title, I was hoping it would be "Alpha male or alpha fail".)
Not that he has completely failed. I think it's clear that he's had considerable influence on how some other HMs see things -- such as Ricci's otherwise odd claim that Audley cooked to get screen time.
I think he also played a key role in getting the "rude" meme to flourish this year. Gary is "rude", HM after HM says (though, importantly, not all of them); other HMs are rude, but not "rude", it seems. "Gary is rude" is how they rationalise their own rudeness and worse towards him. Then, having used up their supply of "rude" on him, they fail to notice how rude they often are to each other.
Anyway, since James's presence has made the show worse for me as a viewer, I do not think he has been a good housemate. For me, this series would be better if James had not been picked as a housemate.
However, I will say one thing in his favour -- and it is not, imo, a small thing. The other day, James said he'd always thought he didn't care what other people though of him, but he'd earned in CBB that he did care.
James seems seriously lacking in self-awareness, but he deserves points for that. I don't think I've ever seen an "I don't care" HM come to that sort of realisation before.
Not that he has completely failed. I think it's clear that he's had considerable influence on how some other HMs see things -- such as Ricci's otherwise odd claim that Audley cooked to get screen time.
I think he also played a key role in getting the "rude" meme to flourish this year. Gary is "rude", HM after HM says (though, importantly, not all of them); other HMs are rude, but not "rude", it seems. "Gary is rude" is how they rationalise their own rudeness and worse towards him. Then, having used up their supply of "rude" on him, they fail to notice how rude they often are to each other.
Anyway, since James's presence has made the show worse for me as a viewer, I do not think he has been a good housemate. For me, this series would be better if James had not been picked as a housemate.
However, I will say one thing in his favour -- and it is not, imo, a small thing. The other day, James said he'd always thought he didn't care what other people though of him, but he'd earned in CBB that he did care.
James seems seriously lacking in self-awareness, but he deserves points for that. I don't think I've ever seen an "I don't care" HM come to that sort of realisation before.
Originally Posted by Heyyouoverthere:
“I hope you feel the same way if someone is treating you the way James treat some hms in the real world.”
“I hope you feel the same way if someone is treating you the way James treat some hms in the real world.”
I wouldn't be in the BB house and provoking him, I can see often he has a twinkle in his eye too and clearly joking, something I can relate to as I know many people with wicked sense of humour like his.
Originally Posted by cherry pip:
“It wouldn't matter if it was Gary or someone else in that house, nor does it matter how famous Gary was, there is no excuse to treat anyone the way that he has. Good grief if I behaved so dismissively and rude in everyday life to people, I'd be ashamed. The whole issue with James isn't that Gary is a liked actor/person, it's how he deals with someone he sees beneath him, just the same as Dee does. There's a pecking order in there and James and Dee have promoted themselves to the top. Anyone who is seen as a threat and someone who is liked more than they are will pay for it. Sadly that is all I've seen in that house and the good moments disappear because yet again, Gary is on the receiving end.
Why is it that people who dislike Gary sometimes use the fame argument? His acting and fame have got nothing to do with what we, his fans, are saying. It's about intolerant and nasty hms having a pop at Gary whenever they can that we find abhorrent. Edele's own mouth said it all, 'Gary's an easy target'. What more is there to be said!”
“It wouldn't matter if it was Gary or someone else in that house, nor does it matter how famous Gary was, there is no excuse to treat anyone the way that he has. Good grief if I behaved so dismissively and rude in everyday life to people, I'd be ashamed. The whole issue with James isn't that Gary is a liked actor/person, it's how he deals with someone he sees beneath him, just the same as Dee does. There's a pecking order in there and James and Dee have promoted themselves to the top. Anyone who is seen as a threat and someone who is liked more than they are will pay for it. Sadly that is all I've seen in that house and the good moments disappear because yet again, Gary is on the receiving end.
Why is it that people who dislike Gary sometimes use the fame argument? His acting and fame have got nothing to do with what we, his fans, are saying. It's about intolerant and nasty hms having a pop at Gary whenever they can that we find abhorrent. Edele's own mouth said it all, 'Gary's an easy target'. What more is there to be said!”
Gary has survived 70 years on this planet. A long and interesting journey with many extraordinary experiences. The longer you live the more you see. the more you understand of life and love and human nature, the good bad and ugly. For this he should be afforded respect regardless of fame or career. The fact that James refuses to acknowledge that and demands Gary earn his respect suggests that his moral compass is skewed by a massive self centeredness. An unlikeable quality.
Originally Posted by Veri:
“Neither. James isn't an alpha male -- I don't think the "alpha male" idea is even helpful in thinking about James, even if we could get past the problem that "alpha male" can be understood in at least two very different ways -- and I don't think he's mentally frail either. (When I first caught a glimpse of the thread title, I was hoping it would be "Alpha male or alpha fail".)
Not that he has completely failed. I think it's clear that he's had considerable influence on how some other HMs see things -- such as Ricci's otherwise odd claim that Audley cooked to get screen time.
I think he also played a key role in getting the "rude" meme to flourish this year. Gary is "rude", HM after HM says (though, importantly, not all of them); other HMs are rude, but not "rude", it seems. "Gary is rude" is how they rationalise their own rudeness and worse towards him. Then, having used up their supply of "rude" on him, they fail to notice how rude they often are to each other.
Anyway, since James's presence has made the show worse for me as a viewer, I do not think he has been a good housemate. For me, this series would be better if James had not been picked as a housemate.
However, I will say one thing in his favour -- and it is not, imo, a small thing. The other day, James said he'd always thought he didn't care what other people though of him, but he'd earned in CBB that he did care.
James seems seriously lacking in self-awareness, but he deserves points for that. I don't think I've ever seen an "I don't care" HM come to that sort of realisation before.”
“Neither. James isn't an alpha male -- I don't think the "alpha male" idea is even helpful in thinking about James, even if we could get past the problem that "alpha male" can be understood in at least two very different ways -- and I don't think he's mentally frail either. (When I first caught a glimpse of the thread title, I was hoping it would be "Alpha male or alpha fail".)
Not that he has completely failed. I think it's clear that he's had considerable influence on how some other HMs see things -- such as Ricci's otherwise odd claim that Audley cooked to get screen time.
I think he also played a key role in getting the "rude" meme to flourish this year. Gary is "rude", HM after HM says (though, importantly, not all of them); other HMs are rude, but not "rude", it seems. "Gary is rude" is how they rationalise their own rudeness and worse towards him. Then, having used up their supply of "rude" on him, they fail to notice how rude they often are to each other.
Anyway, since James's presence has made the show worse for me as a viewer, I do not think he has been a good housemate. For me, this series would be better if James had not been picked as a housemate.
However, I will say one thing in his favour -- and it is not, imo, a small thing. The other day, James said he'd always thought he didn't care what other people though of him, but he'd earned in CBB that he did care.
James seems seriously lacking in self-awareness, but he deserves points for that. I don't think I've ever seen an "I don't care" HM come to that sort of realisation before.”
Yet he mainly comes across as someone who cares painfully about what other people think about him. He reacts to any slight given to him. His constant mantra to Gary, that he is the one who 'cares' and has done so much for him, was shouted so loud and with the wider audience in mind. When he received boos, he agonised over what was been shown and protests so much that he has a good heart and a cheeky sense of humour.
He seems to behave almost always with an audience in mind.
In order to believe this coming to awareness, you have to believe all this other self-protective awareness was void to begin with.
My two penneth for your pot OP:
Broadly speaking there are two tribes co-existing on a crudely equal power footing in the house.
One tribe has the traditional hierarchical animal kingdom structure from which the term 'alpha' in the context of group dynamics is derived from. In common with the majority of other animal species where it is observed, the 'alpha' assumes (usually male) his position with one key trait, aggression. So effectively, the other group members fall into line from fear. In humans the aggression can be both physically and verbal.
This group attracts and consists of the housemates who are insecure. Sadly, it's group norms perpetuates further the insecurities of it's members, including the alpha. As like in the animal kingdom, the alpha can be challenged for his role from within and from outside at anytime without warning.
So a direct answer to your question is that James is indeed the alpha in the house, but only for some of the HMs, ie. for one of the groups. His 'queen' is crudely speaking Dee.
The other group's structure for co-existing do not rely on the traditional animal hierarchical model. It is basically functioning as a 'co-operative.' It's members are both intensely secure in themselves. James is not the alpha for this group.
Broadly speaking there are two tribes co-existing on a crudely equal power footing in the house.
One tribe has the traditional hierarchical animal kingdom structure from which the term 'alpha' in the context of group dynamics is derived from. In common with the majority of other animal species where it is observed, the 'alpha' assumes (usually male) his position with one key trait, aggression. So effectively, the other group members fall into line from fear. In humans the aggression can be both physically and verbal.
This group attracts and consists of the housemates who are insecure. Sadly, it's group norms perpetuates further the insecurities of it's members, including the alpha. As like in the animal kingdom, the alpha can be challenged for his role from within and from outside at anytime without warning.
So a direct answer to your question is that James is indeed the alpha in the house, but only for some of the HMs, ie. for one of the groups. His 'queen' is crudely speaking Dee.
The other group's structure for co-existing do not rely on the traditional animal hierarchical model. It is basically functioning as a 'co-operative.' It's members are both intensely secure in themselves. James is not the alpha for this group.
Originally Posted by Pitman:
“James is a ****, that's a fact, whatever your thoughts on any other housemates surely?
don't like Gary, James is a ****, Garys's fans are annoying, James is still a ****, etc”
“James is a ****, that's a fact, whatever your thoughts on any other housemates surely?
don't like Gary, James is a ****, Garys's fans are annoying, James is still a ****, etc
”
how very true....
Audley is the alpha male in the house. However much James beats his chest in challenge, everybody including James knows that Audley could flatten him with one punch. The fact that Audley has no need to display this superiority makes him even more powerful.
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“I wouldn't be in the BB house and provoking him, I can see often he has a twinkle in his eye too and clearly joking, something I can relate to as I know many people with wicked sense of humour like his.”
“I wouldn't be in the BB house and provoking him, I can see often he has a twinkle in his eye too and clearly joking, something I can relate to as I know many people with wicked sense of humour like his.”
Having a wicked sense of humour is fabulous, I have one too, or so I've been told.
It's when that humour, even with a twinkle is your eye is used to belittle and humiliate another that it becomes unacceptable imo. James is a master on that one.
Originally Posted by Nosaer:
“Audley is the alpha male in the house. However much James beats his chest in challenge, everybody including James knows that Audley could flatten him with one punch. The fact that Audley has no need to display this superiority makes him even more powerful.”
“Audley is the alpha male in the house. However much James beats his chest in challenge, everybody including James knows that Audley could flatten him with one punch. The fact that Audley has no need to display this superiority makes him even more powerful.”
That I can't disagree with at all, clearly he is the Alpha. Doesn't make me like him though.
Originally Posted by BlueStreak:
“Having a wicked sense of humour is fabulous, I have one too, or so I've been told.
It's when that humour, even with a twinkle is your eye is used to belittle and humiliate another that it becomes unacceptable imo. James is a master on that one.
”
“Having a wicked sense of humour is fabulous, I have one too, or so I've been told.
It's when that humour, even with a twinkle is your eye is used to belittle and humiliate another that it becomes unacceptable imo. James is a master on that one.
”
I meant wicked in the sense he does use it that way. I know several people who do and those of us put down don't take it personally or even feel put down, it's just humour and we laugh along.
Originally Posted by BlueStreak:
“Having a wicked sense of humour is fabulous, I have one too, or so I've been told.
It's when that humour, even with a twinkle is your eye is used to belittle and humiliate another that it becomes unacceptable imo. James is a master on that one.
”
“Having a wicked sense of humour is fabulous, I have one too, or so I've been told.
It's when that humour, even with a twinkle is your eye is used to belittle and humiliate another that it becomes unacceptable imo. James is a master on that one.
”
Yes he likes to think of himself as a Master Baiter doesn't he?
i like to think of him in a similar way
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“I meant wicked in the sense he does use it that way. I know several people who do and those of us put down don't take it personally or even feel put down, it's just humour and we laugh along.”
“I meant wicked in the sense he does use it that way. I know several people who do and those of us put down don't take it personally or even feel put down, it's just humour and we laugh along.”
yes it's wonderful when someone laughs and calls you a c*** as you walk out of the door, what wit
Originally Posted by planets:
“Yes he likes to think of himself as a Master Baiter doesn't he?
i like to think of him in a similar way”
“Yes he likes to think of himself as a Master Baiter doesn't he?
i like to think of him in a similar way”
Indeed, mass debater too *nods*
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“I meant wicked in the sense he does use it that way. I know several people who do and those of us put down don't take it personally or even feel put down, it's just humour and we laugh along.”
“I meant wicked in the sense he does use it that way. I know several people who do and those of us put down don't take it personally or even feel put down, it's just humour and we laugh along.”
Unfortunately for James, his sparkling wit and that twinkle in his eye isn't always completely innocent.
He knows full well that he's being nasty and just because he has that twinkle doesn't make it jokey imo.
He's just plain mean and nasty imo. Twinkle or no twinkle.
Originally Posted by planets:
“yes it's wonderful when someone laughs and calls you a c*** as you walk out of the door, what wit”
“yes it's wonderful when someone laughs and calls you a c*** as you walk out of the door, what wit”
Exactly planets.
The man is a nob of epic proportions. Either he's completely different in the way he behaves at home, or Ola needs to be beatified.
IMO.
Originally Posted by planets:
“yes it's wonderful when someone laughs and calls you a c*** as you walk out of the door, what wit”
“yes it's wonderful when someone laughs and calls you a c*** as you walk out of the door, what wit”
I am guessing he wasn't joking on that occasion, like most people he won't always be happy and joking he will have his serious or even dark moments it's called being human. I don't like his or anyone else's use of that sort of language. But I accept he is flawed and still think he has given more to the show than any of the others at this stage. Still a bit sad Leslie was voted out he was my winner this time.
Originally Posted by Nosaer:
“Gary has survived 70 years on this planet. A long and interesting journey with many extraordinary experiences. The longer you live the more you see. the more you understand of life and love and human nature, the good bad and ugly. For this he should be afforded respect regardless of fame or career. The fact that James refuses to acknowledge that and demands Gary earn his respect suggests that his moral compass is skewed by a massive self centeredness. An unlikeable quality.”
“Gary has survived 70 years on this planet. A long and interesting journey with many extraordinary experiences. The longer you live the more you see. the more you understand of life and love and human nature, the good bad and ugly. For this he should be afforded respect regardless of fame or career. The fact that James refuses to acknowledge that and demands Gary earn his respect suggests that his moral compass is skewed by a massive self centeredness. An unlikeable quality.”
Agreed. Sadly though for us who see it that way, a lot of the time we're accused of only voting and liking him out of sympathy when it isn't the case. I would love to sit with the man and hear what he has to say just as I would with a few others. He brings a lot to arm people with knowledge and he gets nothing but a barrage of abuse and disdain by some. Dislike someone by all means but at least use a little humility and tolerance.
I couldn't have put your BIB better myself.
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“I meant wicked in the sense he does use it that way. I know several people who do and those of us put down don't take it personally or even feel put down, it's just humour and we laugh along.”
“I meant wicked in the sense he does use it that way. I know several people who do and those of us put down don't take it personally or even feel put down, it's just humour and we laugh along.”
shame James doesn't laugh when the jokes on him, in fact a simple vulgar quip from Gary had him talking about violence
Originally Posted by molliepops:
“I am guessing he wasn't joking on that occasion, like most people he won't always be happy and joking he will have his serious or even dark moments it's called being human. I don't like his or anyone else's use of that sort of language. But I accept he is flawed and still think he has given more to the show than any of the others at this stage. Still a bit sad Leslie was voted out he was my winner this time.”
“I am guessing he wasn't joking on that occasion, like most people he won't always be happy and joking he will have his serious or even dark moments it's called being human. I don't like his or anyone else's use of that sort of language. But I accept he is flawed and still think he has given more to the show than any of the others at this stage. Still a bit sad Leslie was voted out he was my winner this time.”
he was laughing calling AUdley a C*** to get Dee and Edele to laugh too then they all joked about how Audley would be Gary in 30 years time - how is that James being "serious" or having a "dark moment" ?
that was his idea of witty
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