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EE: I really hope Shirley apologises to Sharon in future...


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Old 18-09-2014, 00:46
LHolmes
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I don't know many people who would have left their best friend and her baby sitting on a bench homeless for a man. It IS possible to look after both and the vast majority of people would have managed it. She made me sick, she'd led Heather to believe that they'd bring George up together (basically because she didn't have anything else at that time), even to the point of trying to chase Darren away (the baby's father!) yet she dropped them like a stone because 'Phil needed her'. Well so did they! Surprised Heather ever forgave her for that. Yes Heather was pathetic and needy but Shirley fed on that when it suited her (which was most of the time) yet Heather was just supposed to grow up when it suited Shirley when she carried her around the rest of the time? Hardly fair was it?
but she did go back and help Heather she managed to persuade Minty to let her stay with him.

Besides it was all Heather's fault for ignoring the letters about overdue rent. What did she (heather) think was going to happen?
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Old 18-09-2014, 01:00
Broken_Arrow
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Perhaps I should have said TPTB always give the Philth a free pass.

And comparing Shirley to a double murder is totally ridiculous and she has not committed manslaughter, armed robbery or arson either.

Oh and just before I go kind, good hearted old Philth had Ryan as his dealer after his crack addiction - and there is no lower form of scum than that.

Shirley is not perfect and she has made huge mistakes but neither is she a monster.

She deserves better than him and so does Sharon.
Shirley has also dealt drugs so at least we agree that there is no lower form of scum than Evil Shirl

Shirley has attempted to kill Mick and Ben so it's not for the want of trying that she hasn't killed anyone yet. She hasn't committed arson but she did burn down Mick's old pub and was part of the gang who destroyed Ian's restaurant. Armed robbery? I'd say give her time

I agree Sharon deserves better than Phil but I think Shirley truly deserves Phil. It is a match made in Hell if ever I saw one. Then again, Nick Cotton is on his way back. Maybe he's the one for our Shirl
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Old 18-09-2014, 01:03
lotty27
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but she did go back and help Heather she managed to persuade Minty to let her stay with him.

Besides it was all Heather's fault for ignoring the letters about overdue rent. What did she (heather) think was going to happen?
I've often thought that Hev was a bit special needs, or at least extremely childlike. She probably thought that if she ignored those letters they'd go away or, more likely, Shirl would sort it out because for a long time she really was almost totally dependant on her but IMO Shirley helped make Heather like that because she most likely realised (though would never admit it) that most of the time she needed Heather as much as Heather needed her, they really were co-dependant. So when they eventually found men and started breaking away from each other it was never going to be pretty unless it coincided time-wise. Heather didn't react well when Shirl got with Phil and in turn Shirl reacted badly to Hev getting with Andrew, primarily because (IMO) they didn't have a man themselves at that time.

Awww, it's making me feel a bit nostalgic for Hev and Shirl! Used to like it when they started dancing to Pepsi and Shirley or whoever Or the time when Shirley agreed to pretend to be a lesbian at that 80's thing - the look on Shirley's face when she realised was priceless



Fair do's, Shirley did eventually do the right thing but the image of her turning away from them and walking away stayed with me, I just couldn't have done that to someone I was supposed to love so no matter how bad Phil was they'd have been spending the night under his roof until I could sort something out the next day.
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Old 18-09-2014, 01:05
Broken_Arrow
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but she did go back and help Heather she managed to persuade Minty to let her stay with him.

Besides it was all Heather's fault for ignoring the letters about overdue rent. What did she (heather) think was going to happen?
To be fair to Heather, she obviously had some sort of mental disability that went undiagnosed. I never understood why the writers constantly treated her like one big literal fat joke when there was more to be explored regarding her mental state. I'd rather have seen that addressed than her getting walloped over the head with a picture frame.

*Edit*

Lotty, we posted at the same time but we're on the same page regarding Hev!
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Old 18-09-2014, 01:14
lotty27
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To be fair to Heather, she obviously had some sort of mental disability that went undiagnosed. I never understood why the writers constantly treated her like one big literal fat joke when there was more to be explored regarding her mental state. I'd rather have seen that addressed than her getting walloped over the head with a picture frame.

*Edit*

Lotty, we posted at the same time but we're on the same page regarding Hev!
Great minds and all that

I agree with you about the joke they made 'Fat Hev' too with her love of cheese etc. It was bloody insulting actually when I think about it. All we knew about her (which could have explained why she was the way she was) was that her dad who she loved left and her domineering mum blamed her for it which must have destroyed her confidence somewhat. I hated those stupid hair bands she wore but when she explained she wore them because her dad complimented he when she wore them my heart when out to her THIS should have been explored more not the cheese loving, George Michael obsessed joke she became. I always found that depiction unsettling.
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Old 18-09-2014, 01:19
Broken_Arrow
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Great minds and all that

I agree with you about the joke they made 'Fat Hev' too with her love of cheese etc. It was bloody insulting actually when I think about it. All we knew about her (which could have explained why she was the way she was) was that her dad who she loved left and her domineering mum blamed her for it which must have destroyed her confidence somewhat. I hated those stupid hair bands she wore but when she explained she wore them because her dad complimented he when she wore them my heart when out to her THIS should have been explored more not the cheese loving, George Michael obsessed joke she became. I always found that depiction unsettling.
Absolutely. Heather used to infuriate me because of the way she was written but I think, overall, she was a better character than Shirley and had more depth. Just a shame the writers didn't think so and decided to bump her off instead of exploring it. I did think she improved quite a bit in her final months once she broke away from Shirley and moved forward with Andrew and George. A pity it wasn't to last
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Old 18-09-2014, 01:22
LHolmes
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I agree with you both about Heather's 'needs' but Shirley could only stretch herself so thin and Phil was in genuine crisis at that time.

You have to admit that Heather could be hard work at times even if she couldn't help it. Shirley wasn't her carer. I would help my friends but I wouldn't expect to sacrifice any sort of life for myself.
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Old 18-09-2014, 01:30
Broken_Arrow
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I agree with you both about Heather's 'needs' but Shirley could only stretch herself so thin and Phil was in genuine crisis at that time.

You have to admit that Heather could be hard work at times even if she couldn't help it. Shirley wasn't her carer. I would help my friends but I wouldn't expect to sacrifice any sort of life for myself.
You're absolutely right that Shirley should not have been expected to sacrifice her happiness for Heather but what sticks in my craw is the fact she promised the world to Heather and George and then left them homeless on a park bench. She didn't have to tell Heather she'd be George's other parent. She only did it because she was going through another bad patch with Phil. It's the cruelty and lack of regard for others that puts me off Shirley. It's been the one constant of her character since day one when we found out she was Carly and Deano's mother. At first it looked like she wanted to change and be a better person but 8 years down the line I think it's safe to say she's failed
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Old 18-09-2014, 02:25
Joe_Zel
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I'm a bit confused because wasn't Shirley disgusted by what Phil did to Sharon and now she seems to think Sharon deserves being binned off?

It's a bit strange that neither of them have thought that she knows about the beating in the Albert. Jumping to the Dennis conclusion was odd.
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Old 18-09-2014, 08:22
Keeki
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I agree with you both about Heather's 'needs' but Shirley could only stretch herself so thin and Phil was in genuine crisis at that time.

You have to admit that Heather could be hard work at times even if she couldn't help it. Shirley wasn't her carer. I would help my friends but I wouldn't expect to sacrifice any sort of life for myself.
Helping Heather and George (as she promised) would not have meant sacrificing her happiness. Phil was having a crisis but Shirley did not have to drop everything to run to his aid as his mother and cousin were actively trying to help him. It says a lot about Shirley that Phil's addiction and vulnerability was perceived as an opportunity for herself.
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Old 18-09-2014, 09:55
broadshoulder
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phil should be apologising
Phil should become a Trappist monk and kick out those two hag's out the square
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Old 18-09-2014, 10:08
broadshoulder
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OK so this escalated into a bashing thread rather quickly! Haha. I still like Shirley, despite her misgivings. I think she would leave if a huge gap if she wasn't there anymore. Hopefully she'll stay for a long time yet, she is popular outside of DS so...
She wouldnt. They be cheering in the streets
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Old 18-09-2014, 10:21
broadshoulder
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And comparing Shirley to a double murder is totally ridiculous and she has not committed manslaughter, armed robbery or arson either.
Burning down Ian's restaurant was arson
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Old 18-09-2014, 10:43
zerothehero
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I dont see sharon saying sorry for robbing phil and lets not forget sharon cheated on everyman she has been with
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Old 18-09-2014, 10:47
Sunset Dale
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I dont see sharon saying sorry for robbing phil and lets not forget sharon cheated on everyman she has been with
When did she cheat on Dennis because I must have missed that?
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Old 18-09-2014, 10:49
kitkat1971
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I disagree. I don't see how apologising to Mick, Carly, Andrew, Tina and so on benefited her in anyway. I think it was genuine on her part.
Apologising to Mick, Tina and Carly benefitted her by getting her back in with her family and getting a roof over her head but I think Mick was the closest she comes.

Andrew, yes she was genuine about being sorry for having called him a killer, i'll give her that but she immediately took away any good by not respecting him enough or caring for him enough to tell him everything she knew about Phil's involvement In the cover up. Basically she, Imo, put her lingering feelings for Phil (which she claimed were hatred at that time but love and hate are very close) above Heather's memory and the people beside her that loved Heather which I find unforgivable.

So, I guess I might conced that she does sometimes apologise but it means virtually nothing because she just keeps repeating her mistakes afterwards and hurting the people she has apologised to again. Apologies mean nothing if the person saying sorry doesn't make an effort to actually change their behaviour so they don't hurt people again. An apology is not just a way of doing what you want and knowing you'll be forgiven because you've said sorry but also carries a promise to not do it again.

But again just my opinion and I accept other's have very different ones which are equally valid.

I don't hate shirley by the way, she is a very interesting character played by an excellent actress. I just don't think she is a very nice person. There may be reasons for that in her past which can explain her and make me feel sorry for her but it doesn't change that the way she behaves means that I don't actually like her as a person, if even I do as a character - if that makes sense.
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Old 18-09-2014, 10:50
kitkat1971
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I dont see sharon saying sorry for robbing phil and lets not forget sharon cheated on everyman she has been with
I don't remember her cheating on Dennis either. Or, come to that Duncan, Wicksy or Tom. Or Phil when they were together during her first return.

Sharon cheated on Grant with Phil but I can't think of any other times.
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Old 18-09-2014, 10:54
kitkat1971
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I'm a bit confused because wasn't Shirley disgusted by what Phil did to Sharon and now she seems to think Sharon deserves being binned off?

It's a bit strange that neither of them have thought that she knows about the beating in the Albert. Jumping to the Dennis conclusion was odd.
Shirley was disgusted before she got a taste of the Phil again. Now that she thinks there is a chance of getting him back properly, sharon can be thrown to the wolves.

Yes, you'd think it would occur to them, especially as shirley was shouting it at the top of her voice when Phil knows Sharon was in the house - he even said so to Shirley at the time x
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Old 18-09-2014, 11:05
kitkat1971
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Still remember her bullying jean in the restaurant. Disgusting behaviour.
Yes, she was horrible to Jean in that scene and afterwards when she was pressuring her not to confess. And her reasoning for Ian 'deserving it' was pathetic. He didn't tell anybody about Ben killing Heather (no the poor sod had a breakdown at least partially because of it, lived on the Streets and couldn't talk to anyone) and why does he deserve a nice restaurant (because he bothered to learn a trade and has worked his arse off over the years to get the money to finance a nice restaurant. You want nice things, you have to work for them Shirley).

I think Shirley does genuinely care for people like Heather and Jean and sometimes she is protective but in some ways she needs them to be vulnerable and needy so she can treat them like ++++ and know they will always forgive her because they feel that nobody else would bother with them and Shirley is lovely to 'lower' herself to be their friend. If they get stronger then they might start answering back and demanding better treatment - hence she tries to keep over influences away from them - like Andrew and even to an extent Ian with Jean.
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Old 18-09-2014, 11:05
Sunset Dale
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I don't remember her cheating on Dennis either. Or, come to that Duncan, Wicksy or Tom. Or Phil when they were together during her first return.

Sharon cheated on Grant with Phil but I can't think of any other times.
Did she cheat on jack with Phil? I mean she was going out with him when her and Phil pretended to be engaged. But I don't think anything happened till after Jack dumped her. And yes I think she went with Dennis when he was with zoe, but that was Dennis cheating not her.

I think a lot of the Sharon haters don't really know much about her past relationships when they come out saying things like Sharon has always cheated.
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Old 18-09-2014, 11:07
Sunset Dale
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She didn't cheat on Ian either but I think they only went on one date together.
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Old 18-09-2014, 11:14
bass55
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I dont see sharon saying sorry for robbing phil and lets not forget sharon cheated on everyman she has been with
Who are all these men Sharon has cheated on? What absolute rubbish.
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Old 18-09-2014, 11:19
0...0
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Exactly. It's p!ssed me right off that they had Sharon pulling out of fleecing Phil, they've turned her into a right mug for Phil too and I am not best pleased

I got right excited when they had her putting her hair up and going off the park to meet Marcus, it was old school Sharon, she was back for a bit. But then they had her doing stupid things like meeting Marcus at the Albert *roll eyes* As if Sharon would be that thick! Now she's softened towards the man who was responsible for frightening her so much that she wouldn't leave the house and felt the need to have a gun (where her son was) because, awwww, "he didn't mean for that to happen did he?" *roll eyes* Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

I'm a bit angry, does it show?



I don't know many people who would have left their best friend and her baby sitting on a bench homeless for a man. It IS possible to look after both and the vast majority of people would have managed it. She made me sick, she'd led Heather to believe that they'd bring George up together (basically because she didn't have anything else at that time), even to the point of trying to chase Darren away (the baby's father!) yet she dropped them like a stone because 'Phil needed her'. Well so did they! Surprised Heather ever forgave her for that. Yes Heather was pathetic and needy but Shirley fed on that when it suited her (which was most of the time) yet Heather was just supposed to grow up when it suited Shirley when she carried her around the rest of the time? Hardly fair was it?



You could be onto something there! I've never noticed that before. We need more men of that age!



Totally agree, love their friendship especially when they get p!ssed and try and outdo each other
Preach it Sister! That episode was great! Shame that they turned her into an idiot again pretty quickly. I get that they had to have Phil find out but there were much less contrived ways than Sharon calling Marcus to a meeting on Phil's door step to tell him something she could have done on the phone or heaven forbid, meet him at his office.
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Old 18-09-2014, 11:23
0...0
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Who are all these men Sharon has cheated on? What absolute rubbish.
It's interesting how previous perceptions of characters can influence how we see them.

One of the regular Sharon haters was raging about Sharon being a crap mate to Linda as she went to Dean to get her hair done. Until another poster pointed out that it was Linda who arranged the appointment and Sharon didn't want to go!!!
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Old 18-09-2014, 13:36
kitkat1971
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Its like the notion she was only mates with Hev because it benefitted her. How when it was often her cleaning up Heather's mess not the other way round.

She promised to be there for George (and to be fair was a lot in the early years), she gave her a place to stay more than once and a job, yet it was all Shirley using Heather when she could be bothered, according to other posters.

Also Shirley is a door mat and Sharon isn't even though she's forgiving Phil for his role in her beating without so much as confronting him first? I know he didn't mean for it to happen but she doesn't even know what the deal was yet. She also stayed with him after the Dennis reveal and after he put the blame on her for their affair all those years ago. Both of these women appear to lose all sense when it comes to Phil yet only Shirley gets criticised for it.
Sharon does get a fair amount of criticism for it as well. Old school Sharon fans hate what she has become. Of course there are some fans that will defend Sharon no matter what and hate Shirley on principle because she is against Sharon - the same is true for some Shirley fans but I think most are more balanced and recognise faults in both characters.

I just happen to think that most of the animosity in the relationship between shirley and Sharon started with Shirley who it can't be denied had a problem with the spectre of Sharon's ghost in Phil's life before she'd even met her and has picked at her from the moment she arrived, even when she was with Jack and not involved with Phil and Sharon really had done nothing to hurt Shirley then. It is not Sharon's fault that she was invoved with Phil before Shirley met him and Shirley was insecure in their relationship and how attractive she was (in the glam, girly way) compared to his former wives and girlfriends.
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